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Messages: 17
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Java platforms moving to .NET?
Java and .NET are usually portrayed almost as opposites: the Java world vs. the .NET world. But there’s actually a lot of cross-pollination, especially in terms of Java application frameworks being ported to .NET. Already, two of the major Java frameworks, Spring and Hibernate, have .NET ports that work with managed code.
Of course, whether or not they catch on is a different question. A lot of those frameworks use methodologies that .NET developers aren’t necessarily comfortable with, like aspect-oriented programming and domain driven design. And Microsoft has its own frameworks, too, like ADO.NET.
Has your development team started using any Java-born frameworks? Or if not, have you looked into them? Heard of them?
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Message #283350
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Re: Java platforms moving to .NET?
We do see this trend but personally I don't bellieve this trend will really become to mainstream. Give you an example which is ASP.NET MVC Framework. This initiative inherited a lot of Java Spring elements inside but I do see many developers will give up WebForm concept and switch to this.
Just use ASP.NET vesus JSP as sample, both side have unqiueness. One thing I do see is .NET community is trying to learn many good things from Java counterparty but nor does Java community.
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Message #283352
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Re: Java platforms moving to .NET?
Let's not forget good 'ole Log4Net. It was originally Log4J, and even though it's not gotten a lot of updates for a few years, its still very good. Just enough flexibility and simplicity to be really useful.
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Message #284079
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Re: Java platforms moving to .NET?
The other way is also happening... JSF is built on the similar concepts of ASP.NET webforms.
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Message #284336
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Been going on for years....
JUnit was ported to NUnit many years ago and has been widely adopted.
.NET would leave Java in the dust if more people would try it. Anyone who has done serious development in both will tell you the tools, support and speed of development in .NET is WAY faster than in Java.
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Message #284703
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Re: Been going on for years....
Anyone who has done serious development in both will tell you the tools, support and speed of development in .NET is WAY faster than in Java.
Well, I found exactly the opposite: more senior and good developers prefer Java to .NET.
From my personal experience (14 years IT, 9 years Java, 4 years .NET):
- C# is slightly better language then Java (has LINQ, properties/events, but introduces struts which just complicate things and lacks real inner classes)
- JVM is better then CLR (scalability, performance, garbage collection)
- core libraries are significantly better in Java then in .NET (just look at the collections or concurrency APIs)
- tools are significantly better in Java then .NET (in particular IDEs, testing, build and CI tools)
- Java community is light years in front of .NET community (number and quality of frameworks and third party libraries)
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Message #284800
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Re: Been going on for years....
- JVM is better then CLR (scalability, performance, garbage collection)
- core libraries are significantly better in Java then in .NET (just look at the collections or concurrency APIs)
- tools are significantly better in Java then .NET (in particular IDEs, testing, build and CI tools)
- Java community is light years in front of .NET community (number and quality of frameworks and third party libraries)
I am surprised this response is dated this year. I could have understood if it was dated 5 years ago.
Come on. Stop kdding yourself. Go and do some real development work using C#. You were really funny with the "tools part where you mention IDEs are better for Java than .NET". Did you really ever use the latest version of Visual Studio? Java community is light years in front of .NET community (as well as as the Java developer :-D). Its hard to fathom and pick the right tools for the job. Yeah it definitely takes light years to decide on that in the Java world!
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Message #284889
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Re: Been going on for years....
Come on. Stop kdding yourself. Go and do some real development work using C#. You were really funny with the "tools part where you mention IDEs are better for Java than .NET". Did you really ever use the latest version of Visual Studio? Java community is light years in front of .NET community (as well as as the Java developer :-D). Its hard to fathom and pick the right tools for the job. Yeah it definitely takes light years to decide on that in the Java world!
I am doing serious development in Java and .NET in the current multi-platform project. VS2008 is improvement on VS2005, which is even greater improvement on VS2003, but still I can't imagine developing in VS :( without refactoring/navigation/code inspection plugins like ReSharper, which brings VS nearer to IntelliJ and Eclipse. Team Explorer is a joke compared to VCS integrations in IntelliJ and Eclipse (where is single click 'get latest version' and 'check-in' for the whole VS solution?).
Other your statements do not have concrete facts so I cannot argue on them. One thing is for sure: choice is better then no choice (believe I know, I am living in former socialist eastern Europe).
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Message #288835
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Re: Been going on for years....
Tony,
I've been doing Java for about 9 years and .Net since it came out and VB for 14 years (well not much recently). I do serious Java and .Net development. I will have to agree with Mileta. I have at least a few projects that started in .Net and I converted to Java because the tooling, support and wealth of 3rd party apis (in areas where it most mattered) were just to compelling.
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Message #288884
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Re: Java platforms moving to .NET?
I don't see how this is news. I've been using .Net versions of Java projects for years.
NHibernate
Spring.Net
iTextSharp
Lucene.Net
NAnt
It really isn't "cross" pollination though. Pretty much one way.
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Message #291386
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Java Generics/Templates
- JVM better than CLR
They are awefully close but there is no winner here. CLR is heavier and using IKVM you can run JVM on CLR, not the other way round.
- core libraries are significantly better in Java then in .NET (just look at the collections or concurrency APIs)
The Java Generics/Template implementation is universally considered bad. So, I disagree with the Collections argument. As for as the Concurrency is consider CCR is the future in .net
- Java community is light years in front of .NET community (number and quality of frameworks and third party libraries)
lightyears is a over-statement. Yes, the Java community is more vociferous and the JCP process for being democratic and stuff, gets things moving on a slower pace.
My point is the choice depends on the Application being developed and the resources that are currently available.
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Message #292408
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Java vs .NET community maturity
Comparing activity between theserverside.com and theserverside.net gives an interesting perspective on >NET and Java communities...
I like the .NET languages better than Java, but miss the richness of frameworks and tools that exist in the Java world. Besides porting, using IKVM provides some opportunities though to bring in some goodness from the other side.
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Message #292464
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Re: Java Generics/Templates
The Java Generics/Template implementation is universally considered bad. So, I disagree with the Collections argument
Collections being better in Java has little (nothing?) to do with generics.
lightyears is a over-statement. Yes, the Java community is more vociferous and the JCP process for being democratic and stuff, gets things moving on a slower pace.
Really? Ok. Maybe it is just a couple of light years ahead.
My point is the choice depends on the Application
I agree. As long as the application sticks to the Microsoft "happy path" choosing Microsoft technologies seems great.
and the resources that are currently available
Sadly this is all too true. If you can, choose better resources.
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Message #298002
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Re: Java Generics/Templates
* Collections being better in Java has little (nothing?) to do with generics.
Generics enrich collections exponentially. .Net Generics are way better implementation than Java. So, I stand by my comments
* Really? Ok. Maybe it is just a couple of light years ahead.
Do you even know what a light year is?
.Net is on earth, so Java is in which galaxy? No Java is not way ahead. Does is have a huge code base? Yes. Is it technologically next gen to .Net ? NO
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Message #298113
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Re: Java platforms moving to .NET?
I'm using NHibernate and log4net on my current project.
It does seem like the trend is for MS so borrow the really great stuff from the java world and use it in .Net. Case in point Entity Framework. It's immature. But it's got it's similarities to NHibernate. When it's been knocked around by the .net community and patched a few times, I'll gladly use it. Even now the integration with Visual Studio is much nicer then typeing xml into hbm mapping files, or using NHibernate.Mapping.Attributes.
And the the stuff in System.Diagnostic for tracing isn't that much different from log4net. Declaritive configuration, multiple listeners (think appenders in log4net) and a really nice log viewer are all there. I would be using the .net tracing stuff if NHibernate wasn't tied to log4net.
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Message #299410
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Re: Java Generics/Templates
Generics enrich collections exponentially. .Net Generics are way better implementation than Java. So, I stand by my comments
Fine. But that still is only a small part of Collections. Even so, Generics are not "way better".
Do you even know what a light year is?
Do you know what a Hyperbole is? Do you know what humor is? It doesn't seem you know what Java is.
Does is have a huge code base?
Yes. Does it have a bigger community? Yes. Open source community? Yes. Third party products? Yes. In this sense it is far ahead.
Yes. Is it technologically next gen to .Net ? NO
Probably not. But LOOK at the person you quoted. "number and quality of frameworks and third party libraries". Then go look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole. Then look at your reply. Then try using Java for yourself.
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Message #301864
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Experience matters...
Dear Mark,
Appreciate your point of view but you need to realize where I am coming from too. I have directed the efforts of our local Java Users Group as a director for 3 years and have no aversion to the Java language per se infact I am big fan of the Java/C# OO languages. I have over 17 years of enterprise consulting experience for various companies and business sectors here in the US with 5 years of Java/J2EE experience designing web based applications using JSP and Struts as well as many other Jakarta/open source libraries. Choice is definitely good but it can definitely slow you down when it comes to deciding on which tool to pick. Once you do pick the tools, finding people which the same right combination of tools experience is really frustrating. Sure, I like choice too but when the choice is obvious based on your personal good experiences, I have definitely gone the .NET route and enjoyed solving business problem rather than figuring out how to use the myriad of tools to get the job done in the J2EE world. The ultimate goal of all developers is to satify customer software requirements and get the job done quickly and efficiently and have a good debugging and deployment mechanism. When I was working in the J2EE world I did not have good tools at that time and VS came along and helped me out a great deal. I managed to single handedly design develop and implement a complex HR Benefits based web application for a small-medium sized business unit early 2004 using .NET and the satisfaction of my client resulted in they signing me with with a monthly maintenance contract which started mid 2005 and continues till today. We can argue which is better over the other but ultimately its your good experience that matters and I can honestly say I had much better experience and success using .NET/Visual Studio than Java/J2EE development environments. Things might have changed today but sometimes past bad experiences makes it really difficult to go back especially you are continuing to enjoy the current .NET benefits.
Just me...
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Message #302082
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Re: Java Generics/Templates
Save me from your great knowledge of english language. You can use the words "fast and loose" but if someone tries to point out to that you, you are trying to be some "word smart". I don't comment with ignorance, that is not my forte and if you feel that I dont know Java, my suggestion is dont get personal here about my knowledge of programming languages. I dont know you, you dont know me, so lets keep the name calling to ourselves than spit venom into the posts.
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