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Ask TheServerSide: Does Microsoft Certification Matter?
Microsoft has numerous certification programs with more on the way. The purpose of the program is to give professionals a way to distinguish themselves and their experience as well as giving prospective employers a means to validate a persons skills with Microsoft technology. But does a Microsoft certification really mean that you have the skills? Do employers really care about certification?
There has certainly been quite a bit of debate over the usefulness of Microsoft certifications, particularly in light of the presence of forums that post questions and answers as well as the ambiguity in the tests themselves. What do you think? Have you pursued Microsoft certifications, and if so which ones? Does one certification have more weight than another? Have you ever gotten or lost out on a position based on having or not having a certification? Tell us what you think!
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Message #163888
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Experience
When I hire people I look for experience over certification. I've worked with some "certified" developers who could talk a lot of talk but couldn't apply it to solve problems.
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Message #163892
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Experience
Same with degrees. Too many times I come across people with tons of schooling that can't find their @$$ from a hole in the ground.
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Message #163894
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None
The value of Microsoft certifications is close to null. How would knowing by heart the answers to a bunch of questions be useful for application development?
Not having a certification has never been a problem for me, but unfortunately I think most recruiters pay attention to this, especially for people who don't have a lot of experience displayed in their resumé.
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Message #163898
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Real recruiters
The value of Microsoft certifications is close to null. How would knowing by heart the answers to a bunch of questions be useful for application development?Not having a certification has never been a problem for me, but unfortunately I think most recruiters pay attention to this, especially for people who don't have a lot of experience displayed in their resumé.
I find that real technical recruiters can tell the difference. It's the bad agencies that go purely by resume. They are generally worthless in terms of finding a good developer. Certs don't really add up to much. Real experience is what counts :)
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Message #163900
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it has some values
without .net certifications, I wouldn't have the job i have now. it's a chicken and egg issue. It really differs from person to person. A certification might be of real worth on this person but might be of absolute no worth on the next person.
There is no absolute "useful"/"useless" conclusion that can be made on this matter.
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Message #163901
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Bidding contracts and MS Partnership agreements
They can be VERY useful to companies, but not for the reasons that are normally discussed. We've all seen the discussions of actual experience versus paper tiger syndrome, and many good points addressed in those.
Companies will often use certifications for individuals to bid certain resources for potential development projects. Remember, on paper to a potential client, credentialed individuals are more attractive than simple names listed next to skill sets/project roles. That said, those prospective clients will almost always demand that they meet at least some of those individuals ahead of award time to try and avoid being stuck with a very attractive-seeming dullard. Another specific use of Microsoft certifications is to achieve varying levels of certified partnership. Levels of Gold Partnership and below have strict requirements about how many certified individuals you must have in order to attain and maintain each level.
These in my opinion are the only reason anyone cares to even look at this in hiring anymore - the standard caveats about hiring someone based on some letters after their name are nothing new and certainly are not anything unique to our industry.
Mike
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Message #163914
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Experience
Certifications never guarantee a good developer, but they certainly can be one item to help guage a developer's ability.
At the end of the day, if a person can't work with others and/or can't learn well, the certification won't get them anywhere.
Personally, I'm part way through with my MCSD. It does shows that I have a certain level of knowlege about the subject. On the other hand, the questions that are asked in the certification tests rarely reflect what I need to know in my actual development work.
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Message #163917
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Benefits of certification
At the very least, earning a cert such as the MCAD, you will touch on so many areas of .NET development that when you encounter a problem in the future, you will likely have a good understanding of how to approach it using .NET. Earning a .NET cert requires learning, and learning in this field is never a bad thing. Earn a cert because you want to learn and it can only add to your skillset and resume. It cannot possibly hurt you.
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Message #163918
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Bidding contracts and MS Partnership agreements
I will resist my 'MS were too expensive so I got my doctor to certify me and lost my job as a result' comment to agree with Mike's spot on assessment of where much of the value in MS Certification lies.
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Message #163927
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Ask TheServerSide: Do Microsoft Certification Matter?
It's just like with any kind of training or education. No certificate, diploma, test score, etc. guarantees that someone is intelligent enough and/or has all of the skills necessary to be a good employee.
However, there are certainly positive things that achieving a certification generally conveys. Evaluated in context with a person's personality, previous work and education history, etc, it can tell you about a person's:
1) ambition
2) interest in self-improvement
3) baseline knowledge
It's certainly not an end-all, be-all, but it can serve to get a foot in the door, open up opportunities, increase earnings, and of course, increase knowledge if approached correctly.
On the flip side, I can't think of many drawbacks to pursuing certification (other than the time and money spent).
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Message #163948
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Certifications are the blind leading the blind...
Certifcations inherentily teach bad practices, especially architectural bad practices.
In fact, these tests are so vaguely worded so as to not give away the answer, they are some of the most irrelevant tests ever made.
The SO-CALLED people who even write the questions have so many degrees, publications, and certifications that they have ZERO TIME TO actually write production code nor keep up with latest technology in writing production code. And thus, all these teachers, MVP's, evangelists, authors, regional directors, Tech Ed and Dev Days presenters are some of the least knowledgeable people while still having this aura of Mr. Know-It-All.
These people come up with a slick demo for their powerpoint presentation, only to have it crash during their demo. Wow for someone who thinks they have the authority to give advice, they can't even get their demo to work smoothly. Furthermore, these people say this is NOT production code, but somehow think they know who to architect a production system while not having writing any production code, NOR spent any time supporting it PERSONALLY in a real production environment.
The more time you spend on certification, the less time you spend on writing real-world production code....
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Message #163953
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Certifications are the blind leading the blind...
RH,
Having read some of your posts, it seems that you have little time or respect for anyone that doesn't code 24/7. All well and good and you're certainly entitled to that opinion, but one thing I'd caution is not to bite the hand that feeds you. Without all that theorizing, postulating, forward-thinking, and academic pursuit that you have such obvious disdain for, you'd end very very quickly with precious little to do.
:-)
Also, trust me when I say - people like you need people like "them" (i.e., architects, thought leaders, technologists, whatever) to keep your work going. Decision-makers and the people who send work your way generally place coders somewhere between the janitor and the mail carrier as someone they're inclined to listen to when thinking about the future.
Mike
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Message #163955
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Screening question for recruiters????
Well, I guess as a developer should INTERVIEW the RECRUITER with a SIMPLE SCREENING QUESTION...
"Dear greedy recruiter, Do certifications matter in the long run and have you run into any situations where they made no difference whatsoever?"
I guess one could ask quite a few questions to this recruiter and that will screen out the fake ones from the real ones......
I find that real technical recruiters can tell the difference. It's the bad agencies that go purely by resume. They are generally worthless in terms of finding a good developer. Certs don't really add up to much. Real experience is what counts :)
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Message #163960
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In Short - It's Normally A Negative Sign
While there are exceptions to every rule . . . . <insert_politically_correct_statement_here>
With that said . . . .
I’ve interviewed and hired hundreds of people the past few years and here’s the rules I’ve observed:
People that have one certification could go either way so it’s a useless variable unless your company needs to fill a quota for some bid. But that doesn’t mean the butt in the seat is of any value at the keyboard.
People that have more then one certification have been studying for those instead of doing real work.
I evaluate everyone equally once they’re in front of me. However, as a rule, I find the best candidates have been too busy working to get certified. Sadly, colleges seem to be providing less and less relevant training. The last couple of years the people with three (3) years experience prove to be more valuable then the ones with a Bachelors degree.
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Message #163963
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Certifications are the blind leading the blind...
And thus, all these teachers, MVP's, evangelists, authors, regional directors, Tech Ed and Dev Days presenters are some of the least knowledgeable people while still having this aura of Mr. Know-It-All.
You are mistaken. While somebody who does nothing but write about development may not have the skills to develop a real application, most of the people you list are where they BECAUSE of their skills. The percieved "aura of Mr. Know-It-All" says more about how you feel about your skills then about who they are. Did you get turned down for an MVP? No, of course not because you are too busy writing real enterprise applications to contribute to other people by speaking or writing about your experiences. Your arguments are full of passion and fury but I see no facts to back them up. Do you even know any RDs or MVPs? What about book authors? Where does all of this passion against these folks come from?
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Message #163964
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Bling Bling and the Pinky Ring
1) ambition
2) interest in self-improvement
3) baseline knowledge
I'd definately agree with #1. And then completely disagree with 2 and 3. I'd say for alot of people getting a certificate has everything to ambition, and nothing to do with the others. Getting a cert has the possiblity of helping getting hired, getting the contract, or making more money... all of which tie back into #1.
I've meant a very small few who were interested in #2 or #3 when getting their certification.
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Message #163965
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In Short - It's Normally A Negative Sign
People that have more then one certification have been studying for those instead of doing real work. Wow, then with three certifications I must really be a slacker! I know, I should follow RH's way of thinking and get a cushy Editor's job and just write about .NET instead of actually using it. :-)
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Message #163969
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Better than nothing
I will admit to being a little biased in that I have a few MS certs: MCP, MCAD, MCSD, MCSA, MCSE & MCDBA
I only intended to get MCSD and well, erm ... I got a bit carried away ! :)
Certs are probably a crude measure of ability but they are at least *some* measure and if nothing else, they demonstrate a desire to learn and invest in your own career.
My own certs were done over a 1 year period in my own time and at my own expense partly to 'prove' my ability and enhance my career prospects (hopefully) and also as an incentive to learn about some rather dry subjects (nothing makes you read a book like an impending exam!).
We're hoping to move to Canada shortly from the UK so anything that *may* help employment prospects has to be worthwhile.
Still, I don't think anything every substitutes for experience and real world experience. However, given two equally experienced candidates would you go for the one with certs or the one without?
The real problem I think is not with certification as such but with the number of people who may not have *really* earned them.
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Message #163970
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In the beginning they were very relevant
A few years ago, I rememeber talking with a colleague about this new thing called the "Microsoft Certified Professional" program. I think at the time there was MCSE and MCSD, and while the developer cert was prestigious in its own right, the REAL money and license to write your own ticket was the MCSE because:
a) There were so few of them (literally at the time only a couple hundred worldwide)
b) To achieve that cert you frankly had to know things most people in the field did not and would not know
Unfortunately for the MS cert program's relevance as a gauge of actual ability, it's own popularity caught up with it and it became a market unto itself. Transcenders, Exam Crams, Training Courses, Braindumps, etc., all created by Microsoft and others to tap into a market. Of course, the actual subject matter got diluted since over time when making such a successful market as accessible as possible, you've got to lower the barriers to entry (in this case, the proverbial "bar"). The dot-com boom completely killed it dead - certification programs became an entry point for people in other dead-end jobs to enter the white-hot IT market. Ironically, the MCSE in my opinion took the biggest hit in credibility during this time as everyone and their brother it seemed wanted to get into hosting, network management, and operations support.
I've seen a lot of valid points here - in interviews the more certs you have, you almost have to DEFEND it (funny, but true). As long as you have the right perspective I think, you're okay. They're best nowadays for generating aptitude for the breadth of development challenges, or for getting introduced to the ground-floor concepts (why the hell else would I ever as a programmer have pursued the MCSE :-).
Mike
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Message #163972
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Ask TheServerSide: Do Microsoft Certification Matter?
for many it does matter
in my case I have been a programmer for a long time, but decided to get MCSD just to have some credentials and I actually learned quite a few things from going through the books, so I think it does help
does it matter?... yes and no, it depends who the question is for
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Message #163974
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Certifications are the blind leading the blind...
Certifcations inherentily teach bad practices, especially architectural bad practices.
Care to provide some evidence to back this up? Last I heard education was never a bad thing.
<blockqote>
In fact, these tests are so vaguely worded so as to not give away the answer, they are some of the most irrelevant tests ever made.
Sometimes they are, sometimes maybe you just dont understand the subject quite as well as you thought.
The SO-CALLED people who even write the questions have so many degrees, publications, and certifications that they have ZERO TIME TO actually write production code nor keep up with latest technology in writing production code.
If they are not actually people are you saying you have received questionaires from aliens? Perhaps your dog has been showing a little too much interest in IoC lately eh?
And thus, all these teachers, MVP's, evangelists, authors, regional directors, Tech Ed and Dev Days presenters are some of the least knowledgeable people while still having this aura of Mr. Know-It-All. These people come up with a slick demo for their powerpoint presentation, only to have it crash during their demo. Wow for someone who thinks they have the authority to give advice, they can't even get their demo to work smoothly. Furthermore, these people say this is NOT production code, but somehow think they know who to architect a production system while not having writing any production code, NOR spent any time supporting it PERSONALLY in a real production environment.The more time you spend on certification, the less time you spend on writing real-world production code....
I agree with parts of what you say but that does not diminish the very real contribution some of these people make to the development process. Who would we credit with patterns if Christopher Alexander had been too busy working as a bricklayer rather than giving some thought to the overriding architectural and design concepts. Someone has to consider the bigger picture without being constantly mired in details.
Software for me is an engineering process with several different facets, of which production code is just one. If gaining certification in this or that helps one of my developers become a better engineer or improves their breath of knowledge then well and good, even if its only a couple of small coding tricks.
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Message #163976
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Passion, Facts...here you go
The MVP's, authors and rd's and speakers are all misleading the industry in S.O.A. as they have with other hair brain architecture and best practices
These people have almost no experience maintaining or writing the production code for a web service yet they are writing books on it and giving presentation after presentation...
SOA has got to be the dumbest thing yet and is exactly like Application Service Providers failed strategy in the
DOTCOM BUST of 2000, yet here we go again..
The people are same thing you see on the evening news, infobots who give a good talk and can answer questions intelligently but are pawns of the industry who told them what to push and what to say....
CASE In POINT:
Look (actually LISTEN) at Tim Huckaby's Interview on Smart Clients on DotNetRocks on July 12 of 2004
http://www.dotnetrocks.com/default.aspx?showID=72
This superstar programmer CEO guy comes right out and says that Microsoft asked him to give a talk on Smart Clients....WHY? Because Windows is the bread and butter of Micrsoft and it will be good selling point to keep Windows development/applications in the mix with the onslaught of internet development.
Microsoft sends this CEO infobot out to all these Tech Ed, user groups and whoever will listen that smart clients are good!! HA!
Are there any drawbacks to Smart Clients, absolutely not! Just like no drawbacks to SOA. It's the best thing since sliced bread but no one, actually very very few, has ever implemented it profitably and neither has Tim Huckaby personally. NOR has Tim Huckaby every written a line of production code for it. He "PROBABLY" gets his employees to do the demo code and then practices the Powerpoint presentation and then says nice things about it. Note: DEMO CODE was written not production code. TIm's not dumb, but he and all the other MVP's and authors have absolutely no business telling programmers about architecture unless they personally keep their own system up and running and wrote the production code. In fact a LOT, if not all the production code should have been writteb before anyone has any right to tell or recommend to other programmers what to do when MOST software projects are complete failures.
He also says right out in a previous interview, that he doesn't write any production code anymore but somehow has the authority to give architectural advice on today's technology which are quite different than the ones he used.
THUS, I have to put up with all these dimwitted CTO's and IT managers who say we need to implement SOA because so and so author, Regional Directory, MS Best Practices and Architecture Group gave a Powerpoint demo.....blah blah blah.....
NOt only is it hard to get work for me and those who actually do the work, it's hard to straighten out these clients who don't know any better. AND then after their last great best practices has failed flat in their face, they associate me unfairly to the majority of these failed IT projects.
And thus, all these teachers, MVP's, evangelists, authors, regional directors, Tech Ed and Dev Days presenters are some of the least knowledgeable people while still having this aura of Mr. Know-It-All. You are mistaken. While somebody who does nothing but write about development may not have the skills to develop a real application, most of the people you list are where they BECAUSE of their skills. The percieved "aura of Mr. Know-It-All" says more about how you feel about your skills then about who they are. Did you get turned down for an MVP? No, of course not because you are too busy writing real enterprise applications to contribute to other people by speaking or writing about your experiences. Your arguments are full of passion and fury but I see no facts to back them up. Do you even know any RDs or MVPs? What about book authors? Where does all of this passion against these folks come from?
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Message #163977
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Certifications are the blind leading the blind...
You guys have to think more global:
If you invest the couple of thousand bucks for stuff you already know or can google, you invest in a already bad-enough economy. The otherwise jobless instructors will have money to feed their family, pay off a mortgage or be able to buy a ticket to Hawaii, where they spend the money in an expensive hotel a distant relative of yours is running. Once that relative is well off, he choses to retire and since you are the only living relative, although distant, he choses you as the new inheritor and owner of the really quite cozy place by sunset beach. He also pays for the move for you and your family. On the flight (1st class), you sit next to a famous Hollywood producer, who shows interest in the novel you have been writing for the last previous years, but never really got finished because all the coding was counterproductive to the poetry you intended to lay down. The following year you give a speech in front of a lot of goodlooking celebrities because you just received what they call an Oscar for best screenwriting (and you got to kiss Cameron Diaz because she played the main part). And while being back on Hawaii, sitting on the porch, sipping on a beer your wife just brought you, looking into the setting sun, you figure out that that MCSE was the best money you have ever spent.
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Message #163978
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Passion, Facts...here you go
Okay then, you take issue with SOA in general and Tim Huckaby in particular. So what then do you suggest companies do to deal with issues like reusability, interoperability, etc.?
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Message #163981
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Isn't Programming an ART? If so, can you certify Musicians?
Since it widely known that programming is an ART, how come musicians or artists aren't certified?
It's because yOu can't certify musicians or painters and be guaranteed a #1 seller or hit single. Heck, these people who goto school rarely sell any music
Just because a musician goes to music school doesn't mean this person will produce a hit single, In fact, very very few who do go to music school do. It's the same for an artist school and the same for I.T. developer/programming certifications.
Programming is an ART.
And stuff like SOA is stuff by certified professional otherwise known as elitiest test takers and authors who have to WRITE a book to get a job because they can't actually write real production code to begin with.
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Message #163982
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Certifications are the blind leading the blind...
Thanks for the quick recap of my lifes story Bob. With all the pina coladas and island babes sometimes I forget how I ended up Hawaii in the first place :)
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Message #163985
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For Programmers to call their stuff engineering is a joke!
The last thing programming software best practices is, Is "engineering"!
Programmers are the most close minded criticism sensitive people you will ever meet next to actors and actresses!!
Programmer have never "actually" compared the results of their best practices to those of previous practices. They also don't know about User Interfaces or Profit and Loss, they know nothing about business and never look at the big picture, nor do they have the ability to do so.
Patterns? have they actually been tested on a broad scale in it someone who wrote a book and say a few things that production coders already learned on their 2nd day of ACTUALLY WRITING PRODUCTION CODE......
Patterns are fancy nonsense whiteboard time killers and powerpoint fillers.
ENGINNERING is all about RESULTS and if you were to take a look at the implementation and RESULTS of your patterns you would be sorely disappointed.
Last time I checked, most big and small software project are complete failures financially and simply don't even make it to production and those that do are so buggy and have patch after patch after path and you can forget out if the USER wants to use it..that's just a dream that you can only wish for......
Whew, imagine if BRIDGES and AIRPLANES and MEDICAL DEVICES are built with the same so called high "quality" patterns of the software industry.
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Message #163986
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Mr. Gates: "If the automobile industry...1000 miles to a gallon"
“If the automobile industry had developed like the software industry,” Gates proclaims, “we would all be driving $25 cars that get 1,000 miles to the gallon.”
To which an automobile executive retorts, “Yeah, and if cars were like software, they would crash twice a day for no reason, and when you called for service, they’d tell you to reinstall the engine.”
YEAH, this is the BEST PRACTICES of the SOFTWARE INDUSTRY today...XP a little better,
You only have to bring your car in to PATCH a FEW TIMES A WEEK and restart the car each time will also trying to figure out who broke into it..
I WONDER WHAT COULD BE SAID ABOUT I.T. SOFTWARE PROJECTS...
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Message #163987
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Funny comment on Software Practices.& indirectly, certifications
http://forums.military.com/eve/ubb.x/a/tpc/f/3701925702/m/5451044
posted Sat 06 March 2004 07:04
Microsoft should make cars, GM should make software:
At a recent computer expo, Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated: "If GM had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving twenty-five dollar cars that got 1000 miles to the gallon."
In response to Bill's comments, General Motors issued a press release stating the following: "If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would be driving cars with the following characteristics:
For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash twice a day.
Every time they repainted the lines on the road, you would have to buy a new car.
Occasionally, your car would die on the freeway for no reason, and you would accept this, restart, and drive on.
Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart; in which case you would have to reinstall the engine.
Only one person at a time could use the car, unless you bought 'Car95' or 'CarNT.' Then you would have to buy more seats.
Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was more reliable, five times as fast, and twice as easy to drive, but would only run on five percent of the roads.
The oil, water, temperature and alternator warning lights would be replaced by a single 'general car fault' warning light.
New seats would force everyone to have the same back-end size.
The airbag system would say 'Are you sure?' before going off.
Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna.
GM would require all car buyers to also purchase a deluxe set of Rand McNally road maps (now a GM subsidiary), even though they neither need them nor want them. Attempting to delete this option would immediately cause the car's performance to diminish by 50 per cent or more.
Every time GM introduced a new model, car buyers would have to learn how to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car.
You'd press the 'Start' button to shut off the engine.
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Message #163989
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Programming isn't an art
Programming isn't an art. It's a craft - there's an important but perhaps subtle different.
An art is about creating, well, art for art's sake.
A craft is about building something that first and foremost solves a problem.
Engineering is a craft writ large - repeatable processes, mass production, scientific analysis, etc.
A programmer is like a carpenter or a mason, not a musician. There's a lot of art involved in good carpentry, but it's still first and foremost about getting the cabinets built.
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Message #163990
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swiss cheese
oh come on, that old flame war between bill gates and GM is like swiss cheese after some one fires off 2 clips with a AK47. The only thing that old debate proves is
1. don't hire gates to fix you car. he couldn't find a carburator if his life depended on it
2. don't hire GM to write your software
taking a certificate course can show you things you might not use, or haven't heard of. But obviously, that is far from understanding how to use a specific piece of technology. the only real way to know that is to build an application and go through the pains of deploying, fixing and maintaining the thing.
Plus, if there's isn't an easy way for HR people to judge resume's, the developers would have to spend a lot of time reading resumes and never get any work done. Personally I'd only do a certificate if my employer demands it and wants to pay for it. otherwise it's not worth my time.
certificate is as certificate was
peter
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Message #163992
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Programming isn't an art
Programming isn't an art. It's a craft - .... An art is about creating, well, art for art's sake.A craft is about building something that first and foremost solves a problem.Engineering is a craft writ large - ....A programmer is like a carpenter or a mason, not a musician. There's a lot of art involved in good carpentry, but it's still first and foremost about getting the cabinets built.
Me doubts if you've ever worked with a true programmer. You've most likely worked with a bunch of these people that have flooded the market claiming to be programmers because they can spell .Net or back on the topic of this thread - people that "decided to get into computers" bought a book, memorized chunks of it, and managed to pass a couple of test.
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Message #163993
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isn't that true of all industries
How is that different than any other industry. All other professions suffer from the same thing. like there are great actors and then there are actors who couldn't act to save their life.
same is of every single profession. truly talented individuals exist in every industry and they are able to elevate the profession to an art. sadly, most people are no where near that level of excellence.
peter
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Message #163995
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In Short - It's Normally A Negative Sign
People that have more then one certification have been studying for those instead of doing real work. Wow, then with three certifications I must really be a slacker! I know, I should follow RH's way of thinking and get a cushy Editor's job and just write about .NET instead of actually using it. :-)
Note I said "there are exceptions to every rule" and "the rules I've observed". So based on my personal experience there is a:
2% chance you're extreamly talented person who decided to go take some test and formal "studying" wasn't really necessary.
3% chance you're a dedicated worker, quick study and managed to incorperate what you were studying into your day job, hence everybody gained.
25% chance you "decided to get into programming", studied and took test when you weren't flipping burgers.
70% chance that while you may not be a total slacker, someone on your day job had to pick up some slack.
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Message #164002
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Bling Bling The Revenge
I think people need to be really honest here...
How many of you that got your Microsoft certification(s) did so fore most to improve your knowledge and skill set? Don't answer yes unless your primary goal when getting your certification was to improve your skill set and to expand your knowledge...
Now, how many of you did it to boost your resume, demand more money, use it as a point of leverage, look for another job, get another job, write a book, get a contract, or increase your credentials?
Certification is just another check mark, in the list of things some employers look for... Do you have a degree, Do you have 5 years of experience, Do you have a certification, Do you have experience using x technology... these are all values Head hunters, Recruiters, HR, and Managers, look at as they go through a list of items they check off to see if people "qualify".
Now... to us developers... Does Certification really mean a damn? I'd say no. When you and I are both in the trenches, what really matters are things like ingenuity, performance, creativeness, skill, dedication, resilience, talent, ability etc, etc. Certification is no more a quantifier of these abilities, as a diploma, or x big name companies on your resume...
Certification really and truly serves two goals... The ability to promote yourself despite skill, knowledge, experience, etc. And the ability for your employer to exploit you (for getting partner status, being a possible candidate for contracting, being able to charge more for your services, etc).
So, in short, let’s not fool ourselves here. Certification in its rawest form serves a monetary end, for you and your employer. All other points are secondary. So, as a quantifier it's a joke, as a money maker it can be a gem.
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Message #164005
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For Programmers to call their stuff engineering is a joke!
I'm a little confused now. Earlier you had nothing positive to say about anyone but the poor programmer who had to deal with all these know nothings trying to communicate the benefit of years of prior experience. You don't buy that they know anything, we get it.
Now you seem to characterize programmers as nothing more than disillusioned engineering wannabes.
What exactly is it you do for a living? I'm starting to think you're just stringing this all along for a gag.
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Message #164016
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It's an art and certications or schools are irrelevant just like
Programming is really an art because everyone is trying to make the next killer app, which is creation.
Even business logic comes from business rules which any project manager or CEO can dream up and someone has to implement it.
Oh, by the way, those 2 articles seem more resumes then actual production code.......
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Message #164022
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Singers Sing, Musicians Make Music, Players Play, but Authors..
Successful Singers sing,
Successful musicians make music,
successful song writers write songs,
successful actors and actresses act,
successful comedian tell jokes,
successful basketball play basketball,
successful CEO's keep running companies,
successful doctors cure their patients....
YET, the UN-successful programmer writes books and articles to get their next job because they COULD NOT do their last one.
Having all this time to write books means you either retired or you can't do what you want to do ( and hopefully actually love to do.)
The I.T. Industry is completely backwards.
These celebrity I.T. people who give talks and Tech Ed and Dev Days presentations have numerous books but NOT a single production application that they have written themselves on the current talk that they are recommending best practices and architectural advice, nor do they maintain it. And especially with their busy speaking schedule do they even have a minute of time to write any production code to begin with.
Ever wonder why I.T. authors that are famous, why they don't have job offers or consulting gigs by the hundreds? It's Because can't do the job. I know that those programmers who are not famous but are in such high demand they make the salaries to go with it.
Note: there are few, less than half a dozen, maybe 3 at most, that are GOOD and they actually charge people $150.00 to come to their private talks and believe me, these are in the database area "only"; where you have to be good or there are major consequences.
BEFORE
************************************************************8
Most I.T. celebrities' WRITE the book or article BEFORE THE PRODUCTION CODE, (as if they can actually do it to begin with)
************************************************************8
AFTER
Most doctors WRITE the medical article AFTER the test and Medical trials has BEEN DONE. NOT BEFORE. The article is also REGULARLY scrutinzed by others than the publications editorial staff because they and their so-called experts could also be just as wrong. So they keep their mouths shut, unlike the I.T. industry.
AFTER
Most Super Bowl Coaches and MVP's write the book AFTER they win the Super Bowl....
AFTER
Most successful CEOs write the BOOK AFTER they have made the company successful
HOWEVER....
With the IT industry, they say, "you have a nice resume and may or may not have worked for a few big companies, and also have a few certifications, please write a book for us and give some best practices BEFORE the have PRACTICED anything on the new technology. As long as you can communicate (of which most successful programmers don't have time and/or can't) I don't care if it doesn't work in the real world cause all you need is DEMO code."
..............Completely BACKWARDS
Software:
Write the book/article before you are successful on what you are writing about.
Others:
Be successful before you write the book on what you were successful at.
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Message #164035
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Certs a-ok.
The one thing that everyone seems to be missing is that a certification is a great way to show you know how to use the tool that you are working with or that you are going to be working with. Give HR some credit they don't really have the time to bring in everyone that applies for a job and a certification is a good way to get noticed. If a recruiter is good at their job then they will weed out the ones with the certification that don't know what they are doing.
A certification doesn't necessarily mean you know how to build good object oriented code or that you can design a good enterprise application but it will help you know aspects of Visual Studio and the .Net Framework that you may not have already knew. What is wrong with that?
A certification is definetly about self improvement and with self improvement comes a bump in pay(most of the time). If someone has the work ethic to spend their free time getting a certtification they are probably going to look into other areas in which their coding can be approved. Its all about finding that fine line between thoery and experience.
To say that people like Rocky Lhotka, Don Box, Ingo Rammer, Fritz Onion etc. can't code a real world application because they are to busy writing books and presenting is probably one of the funniest things I have ever heard.
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Message #164038
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Ask TheServerSide: Does Microsoft Certification Matter?
I agree that software is a craft, not really an art. But you can be an artist while crafting your software... As for certifications, I've lived perfectly without them. It's a good line on your resume, less important than having graduated from a prestigious university or school, and far less important than real experience, but it shows you have studied software a little bit. I don't think these formations can make you a good software engineer all of a sudden, but it gives you some culture. Who knows about Microsoft recommendations for making apps like running as a non-admin ? If you pass the exam, you probably do... These certifications are not all good or all bad.
By the way, an interesting question is how do recruiters select developers, especially unexperienced ones. When you receive 200 hundred resumes for a job, and you know you actually have the time to see 10 of them, what do you do ? You use some objective criterias (degree, supposed skills, etc.), and if you still have 50 resumes, you have to use more subjective (or more error prone) criterias, like graphology (the science of evaluating people from their handwriting, I'm not sure about the word in english;)). Why not use Microsoft certifications for that ?
I guess "r h", who seems very excited by the subject, is very frustrated to see so many IT projects failing. It may justify being so angry about developers who only have certifications and no experience, but it doesn't justify saying all guys having certifications or being evangelists are crap. For example, I've read and used in real applications an excellent book about SOA by Jeffrey Hasan. By looking at his resume, you would think he's that kind of "certification guy", and, good lord !, he preaches SOA, but his book is incredibly valuable, and I'm actually impressed how easy it was to make a WS-Security enabled web service with .NET working with Java and C++ (Axis) clients. See, it's not that bad, I have production code using SOA, WS-Security, and tips by a "certification guy" !
My 2 cents :)
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Message #164044
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MS Certifications can be good
People seem to think that as soon as you get certified you forget everything you know about good practices and architecture and turn in to a gibbering idiot.
You have to take them for what they are.
I'm an experienced Java developer who has completely embraced .NET and I've spend roughly the last year doing it full time. I've been studying for my MCAD certification for the last few months, and every night I sit down to study I learn something new about the platform and API. For someone who wants to become an expert as quickly as possible it provides a great framework for study.
Even though I work with .NET every day full time, I can't touch every part of the APIs and framework. The certification gives me a nice goal to work towards.
I'm not sure why this is such a hot topic. Nobody has ever claimed that a certification makes you a productive developer. It just means that I know my way around the APIs. You have to spend a lot of time with MSDN and the standard libraries to get certified. If it were that easy everyone would do it.
Regards,
Dustin Aleksiuk
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Message #164080
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Structured learning
Having taken two cert exams I can say I found them a useful goal around which to structure my learning, and a useful syllabus on which to focus. Like all learning the exam is an endpoint which tests knowledge but it is the act of learning that is important not the act of being examined. Cert exams provide one way to learn, which works well for some people.
Having taken them myself and being in a position to making hiring decisions I would be favourably disposed towards a candidate with certifications. It is, of course, just one factor, but I would assume a level of commitment from them.
I suspect that some of the folks who decry them loudest are people who are frightened that if they were more accepted they would have to put in the effort to learn them too. Fewer people who have made the effort to do them subsequently devalue them.
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Message #164093
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an expert
For someone who wants to become an expert as quickly as possible it provides a great framework for study.
I seriously question the assertion that taking the course for a certification makes one an expert. That would be like saying, I read a book about building bridges; therefore I am an expert.
I'm totally bias, but the first thing I think of when someone claims to be an "expert" is they are full of it. I know people who have built EJB containers multiple times over the last 10 years, but they don't consider themselves experts in EJB. A friend said this to me once, "experts are people who are insecure and don't really know." There's a grain of truth to that statement.
After 10 years of writing software, the only solid conclusion I've come to is there's no such thing as an expert. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.
peter
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Message #164098
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an expert
"I seriously question the assertion that taking the course for a certification makes one an expert. That would be like saying, I read a book about building bridges; therefore I am an expert."
It would be, if that was what he said, but he didn't. He said it provides "a great framework for study". No-one is suggesting (I hope) that certification guarantees expertise, but it can teach people stuff they didn't know before. I can, however, see a problem with employers expecting too much from certified programmers.
Just FYI, I sit next to Dustin and I can confirm that he is in no way an "expert".
:-)
Jim
ThoughtWorks
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Message #164103
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an expert
"I seriously question the assertion that taking the course for a certification makes one an expert. That would be like saying, I read a book about building bridges; therefore I am an expert.
"It would be, if that was what he said, but he didn't. He said it provides "a great framework for study". No-one is suggesting (I hope) that certification guarantees expertise, but it can teach people stuff they didn't know before. I can, however, see a problem with employers expecting too much from certified programmers.Just FYI, I sit next to Dustin and I can confirm that he is in no way an "expert".:-)
JimThoughtWorks
I assumed Dustin didn't mean it that way, but sadly I have met people who think "cert == expert". I'm sure most people have come across these kinds of individuals. In the 90's, I considered getting some certs and checked out the local companies. One of the "instructors" was calling himself an expert. This instructor studied for the test by himself for a week and passed it. After I spoke with the instructor and asked if he has any development experience, I decided not to get a cert.
Obviously that doesn't mean certs are useless. They serve a purpose and as long as people realize what "certs" mean, it's all good. my apologies if I was a bit harsh. When I saw that, it immediately made me think of some people I've worked with in the past.
peter
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Message #164105
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While others take tests to say "They can" I'm "Doing"
Here are my thoughts, I'm already heavy duty into .NET 2.0 and have good design and technical skills. I'm light years ahead of where the tests are so why spend my time studying what I already know and that's on it's way out?
Certifications are mostly useful to companies, who always want you to study "on your own time". Frankly, I'd rather pour that time into something that benefits me, and certs do not.
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Message #164108
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Oh baby !! Preach it
I evaluate everyone equally once they’re in front of me. However, as a rule, I find the best candidates have been too busy working to get certified. Sadly, colleges seem to be providing less and less relevant training. The last couple of years the people with three (3) years experience prove to be more valuable then the ones with a Bachelors degree. This is so true ...
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Message #164113
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an expert
I assumed Dustin didn't mean it that way, but sadly I have met people who think "cert == expert".
It's true. I didn't mean it that way but I can see why it would seem so. It's just part of everything I'm doing to get good at this stuff (including doing it all day every day at work). I sit in a wierd place with these certification debates. I'm very positive about certification because I've learned a lot through this MCAD stuff. However, I combat the notion that a company can use them as a basis for judging skill. They show a comprehension about the tools, which shouldn't be discounted.
They serve a purpose and as long as people realize what "certs" mean, it's all good.
This is exactly how I feel. It's the same debate that comes up all the time about University degrees. I'm not sure why some people who don't hold a "piece of paper" fight against them so viciously. The "piece of paper" doesn't make you dumber.
Dustin Aleksiuk
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Message #164142
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Paul, congrats...
TSS.NET has finally made it - we have our very own antagonistic, laser-focused poster.
Who says TSS.com has to have all the fun?
;-)
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Message #164148
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Bling Bling The Revenge - How True!
Money is the primary motivation for certification. Money is the primary motivator for nearly EVERYTHING we do in life.
This is the most relevant topic to this discussion. I think if we all take a moment to be absolutely honest with ourselves, we will see the underlying factor here is money. It can be argued that this whole discussion comes down to meeting our needs as humans.
Do people get certified for the wrong reasons? It is easy to argue that everyone does. People want the benefits that are expected to come with being certified, otherwise no one would want to be certified. The underlying aspect to almost all benefits of ANYTHING is monetary. The benefits of education (certification included) are a better job (more money), to live in a better environment (more money), to have things they have always wanted (more money), being respected by peers (somewhat related to money, bragging rights), getting the chance to prove the education (in a better job where there is more money), being recognized for achievements (which may require you to step forward and put some effort into something), etc.
Do people really get certified for knowledge reasons? I don't believe that is the primary reason, but it is a nice side effect. It really comes down to a psychological theory that Maslow has.
Does being certified make you more well-rounded such as a college degree would? I think it introduces you to things or a way of thinking that you would never have had the opportunity to hear otherwise. Education is the same in any respect.
Of course, the underlying factor for many things in life is money. It meets our needs and wants as humans. Why do you go to college? Why do you buy the best car? Why do you work in the first place? This really gets into theory of needs. According to Maslow (Maslow's Hierachy of Needs), the most basic needs for humans are physiological (food, sleep, sex, etc.). The second level of needs is Safety (shelter, clothing, etc). The third level is Love (belongingness, not sexual). What does money do? It helps us meet all of these goals. The last two levels are Esteem and Self-Actualization, which can be argued are not met until the lower primary needs are met.
http://web.utk.edu/~gwynne/maslow.HTM
So true, we go to college to get a degree to get a good job, and we get certified for the same reason. We want more money. Along the way we learn things, and yes RH (and anyone else), some of them may be incorrect. But we learn, and that is always better than being stagnant. I believe someone put it best when they said,
"If you are not moving forward, then you are moving backward."
Am I certified? Yes. Do I have a college degree? Yes. Do I have experience? Yes. Am I qualified to make these statements? I am not sure. Is anyone qualified to make the statements in this forum? No more than I.
I speak from a place where I have been there, and I have done that. When I wasn’t certified, I wanted to be. Not just for the money (although that is a big part of it), but to feel accepted and be respected. It’s a “been there, done that, got the T-Shirt” attitude that I am sure many people share. We want more money, but we also want to be recognized for what we can do.
The underlying argument here is money and psychology of that. Nearly everything relates to money. Everything you do in life has some measure of money in it. Why? Once again, Maslow’s Hierarchy. It goes into meeting the needs of the first four parts of the pyramid. When one actually gets to self-actualization, one can truly say they do things for the sake of those things being good, not just to check a block.
If someone helps someone else out (say like by joining the peace corps), do they do it fully altruistically or do they meet some of their own needs as well? This is an argument that I am truly not qualified for, as it dives head first into Philosophy.
Psychology is the base. Everything else just relates. Think of it like MSDN:
C#
using Psychology.Human;
using Psychology.Human.Theory.Needs.Maslow;
namespace Motivation {
Public Class Certification {
}
}
VB
Imports Psychology.Human
Imports Psychology.Human.Theory.Needs.Maslow
Namespace Motivation
Public Class Certification
End Class
End Namespace
I am Robz, and that crap sounds good to me.
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Message #164151
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Bling Bling The Revenge - How True!
I'll freely admit that, although my initial foray into certification land wasn't purely motivated by money (I agree, everything is indirectly) - some subsequent efforts definitely were.
Back in the salad days, certs were "hot" and companies I worked for wanted certified people. There were bonuses involved. One company I worked for paid bonus money PER EXAM. For those of us in the bullpen who really knew what we were doing, it was basically free money (they also paid for exam fees).
However, there's one reason people end up getting certified that I haven't seen mentioned yet: habit. After a while, I kept getting updated (and occasionally new) certs simply because I was in the habit of being certified and it was simply what you did. I've NEVER paid for a cert exam in 10 years and over 20 exams (both Sun and Microsoft).
One final point - I can't say this is true for everybody since I don't know every developer who has ever lived, but I've known very few people who have pursued any cert preparation on normal company time; it's generally always been something that's been done after-hours on one's own time. Kind of the flipside of the arrangement with companies covering the cost/paying additional money - we'll make it worth your while but you have to do it in ADDITION to everything else you do that makes us money and gets our jobs done.
Just another perspective as the horse enters its death throes.
Mike
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Message #164154
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It's an art and certications or schools are irrelevant just like
Programming is really an art because everyone is trying to make the next killer app, which is creation.Even business logic comes from business rules which any project manager or CEO can dream up and someone has to implement it.Oh, by the way, those 2 articles seem more resumes then actual production code.......
Why so bitter? I'd say Richard Gabriel wrote some pretty incredibly darn impressive code (what you would call "production code" I assume).
And here is some more production code for your enjoyment:
00000000: 70 75 62 6C 69 63 20 73 | 74 61 74 69 63 20 52 53 public static RS
00000010: 41 43 72 79 70 74 6F 53 | 65 72 76 69 63 65 50 72 ACryptoServicePr
00000020: 6F 76 69 64 65 72 20 47 | 65 74 50 75 62 6C 69 63 ovider GetPublic
00000030: 4B 65 79 46 72 6F 6D 41 | 73 73 65 6D 62 6C 79 28 KeyFromAssembly(
00000040: 41 73 73 65 6D 62 6C 79 | 20 61 73 73 65 6D 62 6C Assembly assembl
00000050: 79 29 20 7B 20 69 66 20 | 28 20 61 73 73 65 6D 62 y) { if ( assemb
00000060: 6C 79 20 3D 3D 20 6E 75 | 6C 6C 20 29 20 74 68 72 ly == null ) thr
00000070: 6F 77 20 6E 65 77 20 41 | 72 67 75 6D 65 6E 74 4E ow new ArgumentN
00000080: 75 6C 6C 45 78 63 65 70 | 74 69 6F 6E 28 22 61 73 ullException("as
00000090: 73 65 6D 62 6C 79 22 29 | 3B 20 62 79 74 65 5B 5D sembly"); byte[]
000000A0: 20 70 75 62 6B 65 79 20 | 3D 20 61 73 73 65 6D 62 pubkey = assemb
000000B0: 6C 79 2E 47 65 74 4E 61 | 6D 65 28 29 2E 47 65 74 ly.GetName().Get
000000C0: 50 75 62 6C 69 63 4B 65 | 79 28 29 3B 20 69 66 20 PublicKey(); if
000000D0: 28 20 70 75 62 6B 65 79 | 2E 4C 65 6E 67 74 68 20 ( pubkey.Length
000000E0: 3D 3D 20 30 20 29 20 74 | 68 72 6F 77 20 6E 65 77 == 0 ) throw new
000000F0: 20 45 78 63 65 70 74 69 | 6F 6E 28 22 4E 6F 20 70 Exception("No p
000000100: 75 62 6C 69 63 20 6B 65 | 79 20 69 6E 20 61 73 73 ublic key in ass
000000110: 65 6D 62 6C 79 2E 22 29 | 3B 20 52 53 41 50 61 72 embly."); RSAPar
000000120: 61 6D 65 74 65 72 73 20 | 70 20 3D 20 43 72 79 70 ameters p = Cryp
000000130: 74 55 74 69 6C 2E 47 65 | 74 52 53 41 50 61 72 61 tUtil.GetRSAPara
000000140: 6D 65 74 65 72 73 28 70 | 75 62 6B 65 79 29 3B 20 meters(pubkey);
000000150: 52 53 41 43 72 79 70 74 | 6F 53 65 72 76 69 63 65 RSACryptoService
000000160: 50 72 6F 76 69 64 65 72 | 20 72 73 61 20 3D 20 6E Provider rsa = n
000000170: 65 77 20 52 53 41 43 72 | 79 70 74 6F 53 65 72 76 ew RSACryptoServ
000000180: 69 63 65 50 72 6F 76 69 | 64 65 72 28 29 3B 20 72 iceProvider(); r
000000190: 73 61 2E 49 6D 70 6F 72 | 74 50 61 72 61 6D 65 74 sa.ImportParamet
0000001A0: 65 72 73 28 70 29
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Message #164163
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It's an art and certications or schools are irrelevant just like
Is that a Pattern I see in there? It is - I see that you implemented the "Counting by Hex Pattern" for your line numbering scheme.
Blah - I suck, that was much funnier before I typed it.
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Message #164172
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It's an art and certications or schools are irrelevant just like
The hex pattern is just there to make the code more human readable. In production, the same code looks like this (which btw is the first punchcard implementation of RSA:)
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Message #164174
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punchcards
"no one move, I just dropped the punchcards and I forgot to number them."
this message brought to you by Murphy.
peter
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Message #164182
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punchcards
You know, the time spent reading this thread could have been poured into another Certification?
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Message #164191
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Certifications and Timing
I have to admit, I got my first certification (MCSE by the way) when I was between projects and didn't want to sit around the house going nuts. The motivation wasn't money because I am not now, nor have I ever been a systems engineer. It's just that, and this is funny to me now, the MCSD certification (pre .NET) seemed too hard. :-)
Then I got ahold of the first .NET beta. Actually a more accurate way to say it would be that it got ahold of me. After several years of doing whatever the client wanted with no real interest in one technology over another, I got completely hooked on .NET. I started jamming every bit of information I could find into my head and eventually got work doing .NET while it was still in Beta.
At this time, there weren't a lot of jobs for .NET developers but there were a lot of developers who were interested in getting .NET jobs. So recruiters needed a way to validate a developers skills. Problem was, the new MCAD and MCSD .NET certifications weren't out yet, in spite of the fact that many resumes that were coming to my desk claimed to be ".NET Certified" before quickly being moved to my trash can.
When the .NET certifications did finally come out, it was a strategic advantage to have the certification while it was still very new. I'm proud to say that I am a Charter MCAD having been one of the first 2000 people worldwide to get the MCAD. As soon as the last test came out for the MCSD .NET, I took the tests and got that too.
I believe that having gotten certified at those early stages before there were any study guides or even training from Microsoft, meant something both to my marketability as a consultant and in regards to my skills. I'm sure that it helped get one or two of the projects I have worked on. But what does it mean now?
With every day that passes it seems to mean less and less. As more books come out that home in on the actual contents of the tests, experience becomes less important. Every time a developer takes the test and then posts a question from the test online, the value goes down a bit more. Personal Note: If you are one of those people, cut it the heck out! You're not helping anybody and you're hurting the rest of us!
What I'd like to see is for Microsoft to grant certifications for only one year. Every year you should have to retake the tests and every year the tests should be different. Of course, I'd also like to see them lower the price for people retaking the tests, otherwise $700+ bucks a year would be tough for a lot of people to do.
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Message #164204
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Have no experience - spend money for certificates !!!
Hajo,
I am quite young person - only 2 years experience in .NET industry. Now I am looking for a job in Ireland and almost any
agency sends me the same answser - we can meet in 2 years!!!
They do not want to check my real knowledge. As far as I know I can only pass some exams in order to increase probability that I find a job. Sad but true.
regards
Gawel
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Message #164206
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"Better than nothing" = "Worth Next to nothing"
"Better than nothing"
might as well be
"Worth Next to nothing"
I will admit to being a little biased in that I have a few MS certs: MCP, MCAD, MCSD, MCSA, MCSE & MCDBAI only intended to get MCSD and well, erm ... I got a bit carried away ! :)Certs are probably a crude measure of ability but they are at least *some* measure and if nothing else, they demonstrate a desire to learn and invest in your own career.My own certs were done over a 1 year period in my own time and at my own expense partly to 'prove' my ability and enhance my career prospects (hopefully) and also as an incentive to learn about some rather dry subjects (nothing makes you read a book like an impending exam!).We're hoping to move to Canada shortly from the UK so anything that *may* help employment prospects has to be worthwhile.Still, I don't think anything every substitutes for experience and real world experience. However, given two equally experienced candidates would you go for the one with certs or the one without?The real problem I think is not with certification as such but with the number of people who may not have *really* earned them.
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Message #164208
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Your opinion
If having some certs gets your CV / Resume in front of people and in the right pile then they can not be classed as worthless.
How different are they to a degree? A degree is no guarantee of ability, just a measure of achieving a certain 'standard' and a quick way for someone, somewhere to filter people out and cut down a list.
Yes, in an ideal world people would evaluate candidates properly for jobs but companies dont always have the time, skills or money to do this and so certs and qualifications substitute for it.
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Message #164209
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Certification != Expert
Here let me help you out with such a great quote.....
Certification != Expert
I assumed Dustin didn't mean it that way, but sadly I have met people who think "cert == expert". I'm sure most people have come across these kinds of individuals. In the 90's, I considered getting some certs and checked out the local companies. One of the "instructors" was calling himself an expert. This instructor studied for the test by himself for a week and passed it. After I spoke with the instructor and asked if he has any development experience, I decided not to get a cert.Obviously that doesn't mean certs are useless. They serve a purpose and as long as people realize what "certs" mean, it's all good. my apologies if I was a bit harsh. When I saw that, it immediately made me think of some people I've worked with in the past.peter
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Message #164212
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Celebrity I.T. People? Evangelists != True Expert Coder or ....
....To say that people like Rocky Lhotka, Don Box, Ingo Rammer, Fritz Onion etc. can't code a real world application because they are to busy writing books and presenting is probably one of the funniest things I have ever heard.
Really, you think these people are good? WHEN IS THE LAST TIME these people CODED a complete PRODUCTION application and maintained a complete application with regards to the current technology?
Or do this people, resting on the past work or resume, get other programmers to do it for them?
Just when do this people have time to even code in the first place?
ANSWER: They DON'T have time with all the talks, demos, and powerpoint presentation they have to give and quickly learn and get up to speed.....INFO NEWS ANCHOR BOTS CEO TYPES....
Most, if not all of these teaching companies are all flash, theory, and MCSD trick questions at it's best...
DON BOX:
Don Box is well known for giving highly-rated presentations at industry conferences.
http://channel9.msdn.com/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=31792
Hmmmm...it's takes practice and time to give good and new presentations at all these event....
WHERE is the TIME to actually do PRODUCTION CODING and therefore have the RIGHT to say something on ARCHITECTURE?
INFOBOT..............
Rockford Lhotka
http://www.lhotka.net/Content.aspx?Area=Publications
Just where does this guy have the time to write PRODUCTION CODE? Has he ever had to be RESPONSIBLE for a production application in .NET?
These people are evangelists, infobots. NOT ARCHITECTS and certainly NOT PRODUCTION CODERS...
These same have absolutely no business writing a book about architecture when they haven't even coded a production applicationa and maintained it in the technology they are talking about.....
These people write the book BEFORE they are successful in what they are writing about
GO AND WRITE PRODUCTION CODE AND SEE IF PEOPLE ACTUALLY PAY MONEY FOR IT and then AFTER, write the book....
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Message #164213
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Software Book Author != Expert or Production Coder or Architect
Software Book Author != Expert
Software Book Author != Production Coder
Software Book Author != Architect
AN ARCHITECT in the REAL WORLD has ACTUALLY BUILT AND DESIGNED A BUILDING or SOMETHING that PEOPLE ACTUALLY USE and PAY MONEY FOR.
However, Software Book Authors have only built Presentation demos and give TALKS when asked, By the way, their books do NOT contain production code.
Sounds like the dominos are falling, doesn't it?
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Message #164222
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In Short - It's Normally A Negative Sign
The last couple of years the people with three (3) years experience prove to be more valuable then the ones with a Bachelors degree.
How about people with Bachelors degree + 3 years of experience? You are comparing apples to oranges to say the least.
My personal experience is that MS Certifications are not a "key item" when it comes to hire a good developer. I'd love to see some kind of certification similar to the SUN Certified Java Developer where the applicat must submit a project in order to be evaluated and tested.
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Message #164225
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In Short - It's Normally A Negative Sign
My personal experience is that MS Certifications are not a "key item" when it comes to hire a good developer. I'd love to see some kind of certification similar to the SUN Certified Java Developer where the applicat must submit a project in order to be evaluated and tested.
That project is really trival. And there is no project for Java Web component developer and business component developer certs (aka. the J2EE certs).
At least the MS certs are more credible than Sun Java certs in that they cover much wider range of knowledge in the subject tested, and requires more time and effort to cram than the Sun Java certs.
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Message #164228
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paper bigots
Hajo,I am quite young person - only 2 years experience in .NET industry. Now I am looking for a job in Ireland and almost any agency sends me the same answser - we can meet in 2 years!!!They do not want to check my real knowledge. As far as I know I can only pass some exams in order to increase probability that I find a job. Sad but true.
regards Gawel
I feel for you man. Having experience that first hand, it can be a real slap in the face. Especially when the person interviewing you has less knowledge and is repeating stock questions they've memorized. The best way around that is to make connections. Most HR departments can't filter resumes worth a lick. Having been on the interviewer end of things, I've had to report HR people to VP of my division in the past. this isn't a joke or made up, but I've had HR people tell me, "the person should have atleast a CS degree, certifications and 5 years of experience." It took 4 months of interviewing 2 dozen horrible candidates before the VP demanded someone else handle our openings. Many HR people really don't get "it".
It is about finding someone with solid experience and a passion for the work. All the other paper should be considered bonus items, but not the criteria for moving to the next phase of filtering out the resumes.
I'm totally bias and likely wrong, but that's my experience working with HR people.
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Message #164231
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In Short - It's Normally A Negative Sign
My personal experience is that MS Certifications are not a "key item" when it comes to hire a good developer. I'd love to see some kind of certification similar to the SUN Certified Java Developer where the applicat must submit a project in order to be evaluated and tested. That project is really trival. And there is no project for Java Web component developer and business component developer certs (aka. the J2EE certs).At least the MS certs are more credible than Sun Java certs in that they cover much wider range of knowledge in the subject tested, and requires more time and effort to cram than the Sun Java certs.
mmm... then I got the difficult project... but having both the Developer and Architect Certifications from SUN and a MSCP from MS I feel otherwise you do.
This is my personal view though.
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Message #164241
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In Short - It's Normally A Negative Sign
mmm... then I got the difficult project... but having both the Developer and Architect Certifications from SUN and a MSCP from MS I feel otherwise you do. This is my personal view though.
Let's compare apple against apple, organge against orange:
SCJD vs MS 70-316 (Win App with C#)
SCJWCD vs MS 70-315 (Web App with C#)
SCJBCD vs MS 70-320 (Web service and server comp with C#)
I would say only SCJD is argubly more credible than 70-316 (which is probably your MCP exam).
SCJWCD is like Java Web 123, is'nt it?
What would have been left in SCJBCD if Entity Bean were removed from the test?
At the end, most certification is about knowledge test, not ability test. That is why I thought MS tests hava a better coverage of the technology tested.
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Message #164251
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Depends on how you see it
If your aim is to gain knowledge, the preperation helps you.
You can take it as an opportunitiy to learn the stuff, which, as a normal developer you may not touch regularly, or sometimes never.
You can read a book even without sitting for an exam, however, having a certification may be advantageous in some cases, as you cannot always expect the interviewers to be people who knows how to find the REAL POTENTIAL inside you(in few hours).
If you want to attempt the exam for the colorful piece of paper, you can do it in 1-2 weeks.You may get a job as well, perhaps loose it soon(If you don't start real learning even at this point);Just like those people having Masters degree in IT without having knowledge to build very simple applications.
Having a certification can have advantages.Atleast there is no harm(Even if you byheart everything in 1-2 weeks).
If you take it as part of your learning, you can apply in your work.Sometimes you may attract even the interviewers.
I feel something is better than nothing(In a not so ideal/perfect/real world).
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Message #164290
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What about other certifications such as Brainbench?
I have quite a few Microsoft and Brainbench certifications and I must say that Branbench's tests are tougher than Microsoft's ones; but this is a personal opinion. So, the question I have in mind for some time is "Are certifications recognized by the recruiters & employers based on their ability to prove real skills?". I believe the answer is "yes".
But I guess the real question here is "Does Certifications matter?" Deep down inside I believe certifications, not only Microsoft certification, don't really matter. What employers are looking really for is hands-on experience. I know of people who passed Microsoft certifications without coding a single line of code!
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Message #164408
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Brainbench = Brain dead
<disclaimer>
Okay, so I'm speaking now as just another reader not a duly designated representative of TSS or TechTarget. I certainly wouldn't want to discourage BrainBench from advertising on our fine website.
</disclaimer>
<rant>
BrainBench's tests are awful, at least back when I looked at them. Some of the questions were undeniably wrong and others were on concepts so trivial as to be more of a test of your ability to memorize unused properties than an understanding of how a certain control works. Resumes that come to me for review should save both ink and space by not bothering with BrainBench certs.
</rant>
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Message #164820
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Complete agreement...
Every year it gets worse and worse. There is a whole army of people out there that do nothing except skim every BETA product on the horizon and then write books, publish whitepapers, conduct seminars, do speaking engagements that provide little real industry value to anyone except the companies hyping their products. For the last year every tech site and eMagazine has been plastered with ASP.NET 2.0, Avaon, Indigo, Sql 2005 and the rest of the stuff that might be great once it actually gets here but is so far on the horizon this stuff is meaningless now. They do this because once the BETA curve is over, it takes real experience to add value, and they don't have it.
I am a charter member MCSE (1994) and MCSD (1995). When certifications first came out they included priority support incidents, access to training materials and discount courses, MSDN Library edition, and lots of other stuff that showed Microsoft was helping support you as someone who put the effort (and money) into being a specialist in their technologies. Then Microsoft was taken over by Marketing and forgot that developers generate sales by wanting to develop solutions with their products. Now it is pretty much useless! The argument that certification increases your value to employers is pretty much a fallacy for anyone with more than a couple of years of experience.
Experience is what counts!
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Message #164823
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This sums it up...
Certification really and truly serves two goals... The ability to promote yourself despite skill, knowledge, experience, etc. And the ability for your employer to exploit you (for getting partner status, being a possible candidate for contracting, being able to charge more for your services, etc). So, in short, let’s not fool ourselves here. Certification in its rawest form serves a monetary end, for you and your employer. All other points are secondary. So, as a quantifier it's a joke, as a money maker it can be a gem.
100% dead-on accurate! I've been an MCSD since 1998 and I agree with this completely. The only reason I bothered to upgrade on the new track to get the MCAD, MCSD...marketing.
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Message #164825
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For Programmers to call their stuff engineering is a joke!
Making some "blanket" statements that "programmers aren't engineers" and are "close-minded" is ridiculously close-minded in and of itself. I have been an engineer and and a programmer (for 20 years) now. In fact I design and implement production software that is used by engineers around the world. Now let's see how sensitive YOU are to criticism!
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Message #164827
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Re: Software Book Author != Expert or Product Coder or Architect
Whoa! I can't believe you are saying this about the two examples you gave. I might be able to understand about some other MVP's but definitely not these two.
Most of Rocky Lhotka's stuff was architected by him. He produces a full on application framework in his books (Expert C# Business Objects). I would dare to say that he is easily capable of "architecting" and writing "production" code.
Now as for Don Box, you are crazy for saying that about him. He has been a part of the Indigo team for the past year or two. Don Box is the man! Not an infobot.
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Message #164836
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For Programmers to call their stuff engineering is a joke!
Either you are a developer describing yourself, or you are a manager who did a bad job hiring compitent people. Either way the generizations only show your own stupidity.
If programs did not produce RESULTS then no one would use the things. And by RESULTS I mean returning correct results in a timely maner that meet the requirments. If you were managing the developers -- did you even gather requirements? Or just tell them to get the code done as fast as possible?
And patterns are intended to address a problem. This is EXACTLY the sort of thing that engineers do. Do you expect them to redesign a bridge every time from scratch and risk making brand new mistakes each time?
No you blatering idiot. Of course they look at the requirements and use an existing bridge PATTERN that is known to work in that situation.
I know the world is inhabited with idiots, I just wish they had smaller voices.
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Message #164842
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Awfully Short Sited of you RH
RH,
1. Where and from whom did you learn everything that you know about programming? (of course it sounds like you think you already know "everything" about programming, are we to assume that your knowledge was immaculately conceived?)
2. How exactly to you plan to personally do all the programming the at the world needs, since obviously nobody but you is actually qualified to sit at the alter of programming and breath life into code?
3. Just how do you make a better wheel? (as it sounds as though you spend all of your time re-inventing them, I thought I would ask…)
4. Just how are people supposed to “become programmers” since you are to busy writing real code to teach them?
5. Finally, if “all you do is write real code” what are you doing here?
As for the value of certification, as a person who has achieved my MCAD (and working on my SD) and who still has the same job I did when I started working on my certification. I would posit that the value of certification is in the eye of the beholder. For me the quest for certification has served several purposes. Most importantly, it has served to expand my skill set by exposing me to different approaches to problem solving and tools for solving problems. Second, it has provided a good paradigm for deciding what approach is best suited to any given case.
While certification does not “guarantee” that an individual will be a successful programmer/developer, it does serve as a tangible baseline in a world in which not everybody who makes hiring decisions can be qualified to do every job for which they are hiring.
Perhaps most importantly, certification shows that a person is current in there skill set. If I am looking at two candidates, one who has a MS in Computer Science, who graduated in say 1980 and a candidate who has an MCSD in .NET, what do I “KNOW” about each person?
I know the person with Masters Degree knows FORTRAN, COBOL, and maybe some assembler and a lot of theory.
I know the person with the MCSD knows how to build Window and Web Based applications and services using the current generation of technology.
With that knowledge, as well as knowing what I’m looking for in a candidate, I can then make a more educated decision as to what I want in a new programmer.
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Message #164862
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Cerifications are great...
...as long as they are accompanied by solid experience. A certification by itself means very little. However combined with a track record of succesful experience a certification can definitely be a plus. Certs are good because they expose you to a wide range of technology you might not be exposed to in your daily work, and this can prove highly beneficial. Also for potential developer hires, I like to see certifications because it shows the person is making an effort to expand their knowledge and increase their credentials. Even if it is motivated by money, so what? So is pretty much everything else.
On the other hand, we've had plenty of people come in with certifications that bomb the developer test. Certifications alone are not enough, nothing trumps experience. You can have all the certifications in the world but if you can't show that you can use that knowledge, then the certs are worthless.
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Message #164882
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Make it like PMP
...as long as they are accompanied by solid experience. A certification by itself means very little. However combined with a track record of succesful experience a certification can definitely be a plus.
I agree completely. In order to get a certification you should be required to perform at least one year in the field using the technology you are certified in. This doesn't mean writing "Hello World!" programs that you can view on your PDA either. Actual real world experience.
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Message #164887
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Why it doesn't matter today...
I am a systems integrator. If I get a MCSD then I have acheived a windows app cert and a web app cert. In my experience in the service integration world, Windows apps don't get used that much outside of test harnesses, and NUnit has taken most of that need away too. So the fact that I would have a certification in developing them doesn't mean anything because I really don't have practical experience.
Furthermore, I think getting a certification in a vertical solution (Windows or Web) is sending the wrong message to developers. This is the reason many of us couldn't care less if they have a certification with out some real world experience.
I think the model should change to a horizontal certification path instead of a vertical one. That way you take a windows or a web ui cert along with a business layer cert and a data layer cert. For enterprise applications this is more inline with how people are allocated. Now my data layer programmers don't need to know that a form inherits from a control, nor do they care. More importantly my presentation layer folks are not concerned about where to store the user id and password for the database that contains the list of customer to populate their drop down. I believe this would lead to better programmers and ultimately better designs with clear seperation.
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Message #164889
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Certification Matters
Hmm. A lot of talk about certificaiton does not matter. Where are all of those people that have both Certification and Experience. I have been building ASP.NET C# apps for 3 years now. This year I (as a team member) have participated in taking our companies architecture to the SOA world. This project was successful. All of our team members are skilled and only code. There are 24 of us.
3 are MCSD's, 1 is an MCAD, 1 is an MCP ASP C#, 1 is an MCDBA, and 2 are MCSEs. The entire team is encouraged to take the tests and receive rewards for doing so. All team members certified or not play key roles in producing the code that is rolled into production. That said with the exception of 1 non-certified team member, those that are certified are the drivers in moving the team toward company goals.
Our company must have all projects complete and in production in 8 1/2 months each year. No-one here is a slacker. Those that are certified have done so on their own time. No-one else picks up their work so someone else can certify.
Based on everything I've said so far, It seems that in our private world certification does have some value. That value is reflected in the confidence managers are placing in the team members that drive our projects(Certified Team Members).
Speaking for myself only, getting certified has forced me to review technologies(architectures) and subsequently implement them where I would not have before. I have spent the last year studying and testing and it has yielded knowledge that was turned into experience.
Is certification worth it? Yes. Does it mean I am an expert? Probably not. Will it help both me and the company I work for? Definately and it has. Not one of the certified team players here would disagree with this. The rigorous schedule we met when releasing software using state of the art theory and best practices has proved it to me. Does being certified mean you are a better programmer than those that are not? No. It means you have exposed yourself to a challenge that broadened your knowledge and possibly your skillset.
Open and Blanket criticism is warranted only when there is actual proof that there has been imperceptable real benefit.
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Message #165139
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Another side to the story
The first point I would like to make is that experience is not neccessarily valuable. That is, I know plenty of experienced developers that are a waste of space. The quality of the experience, and the quality of the individual, are also factors.
Try this formula:
experience + ability to learn (intelligence) * desire to learn = employee value.
It is important to realise that these things are difficult to measure in an interview. It is judging a book by its cover. That is why too much emphasise is placed upon things that are quantifiable, in particular, having a degree, having a certification, and having x years of experience.
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Message #165863
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GM Versus Microsoft
I can't believe I am agreeing with Bill Gates on this but the comparison he made to the car industry is right on. Cars are using the exact same technology to turn the wheels as they were 100 years ago! I own a 97 Honda and I have to take the freaking thing into the shop every 6 months. Honestly, I reboot my XP machine less than that.
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Message #284330
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medical device engineering
MEDICAL data isn't comprise high "quality" forms of the software industry?
Clinical solutions is a joke? lots of them is part of an hardware and not "normal" PC. that's a joke? ain't no engineering?
Lets take medical devices company Hadasit from Israel which is part of the local Hebrew University and the Haddassah hospital. think it's just a joke? not results?
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Message #326650
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The value of Microsoft certifications
The value of Microsoft certifications is close to null. How would knowing by heart the answers to a bunch of questions be useful for application development? I would also like to recommend Generic Viagra for people like myself that have intimacy issues.
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(June 25, Tech Talk)
In the second of a two-part series, Michele Leroux Bustamente discusses design decisions related to the claims-based security model. Read the story and walk through the process for creating a set of claims-based utilities to encapsulate claims authorization at the service tier.
(May 24, Article)
Understanding why the Entity Framework exists and learning where it can fit into your projects can get you prepared for the eventual release early next year.
(May 10, Article)
Resource: This learning guide gives you quick access to useful links on Windows Communication Foundation security information.
(April 24, Article)
TSS.NET's Jack Vaughan spoke recently spoke with Microsoft's Brad Abrams to find out what he is seeing in the field and what the chefs in Redmond are cooking. Along the way he discusses patterns of AJAX frameworks.
(April 11, Article)
In a two-part series, Michele Leroux Bustamente explains how claims-based security is supported by WCF, and how you can implement a claims-based security model for your services.
(March 29, Article)
Windows Workflow Foundation is a new technology that many developers will need to get their heads around. In a brief excerpt adapted from Programming Windows Workflow Foundation: Practical WF Techniques and Examples using XAML and C#, K.Scott Allen considers aspects of workflow definition.
(March 22, Chapter Excerpt)
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