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Messages: 12
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Java vs. .NET Debate at TheServerSide Java Symposium
During a panel discussion entitled "The Future of Enterprise Java", panelists from companies such as Sun, BEA, and TheServerSide.COM fielded questions on the competition provided by Microsoft .NET and whether J2EE could survive.An audience member identifying himself as a Motorola employee expressed concerns about Java's future. He asked why developers should be confident that J2EE would survive the Microsoft onslaught.
"I can see some of the new [projects] that are in the works. They're all .Net. All the younger developers that I’m associated with are all in .Net," he said. The answers from the panelists ranged from FUD from Sun's Mark Hapner to more objective opinions such as this one from Floyd Marinescu.Commenting after the panel session, Floyd Marinescu, founder of TheServerSide online community for Java developers, said he did not believe there would be many conversions from Java to .Net and vice versa, unless there was a specific need. The platforms do the same thing, said Marinescu. "I think there's always going to be committers," to the different camps, he said. To read more about the panel discussion, read Java vs. Microsoft .Net debate rages
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Message #160453
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.NET expert: Microsoft is losing confidence in .NET
Relevant thread on TSS.com, that should be here:
.NET expert: Microsoft is losing confidence in .NET
.NET aint going away. Neither is J2EE. Many companies will use both, J2EE will continue to dominate the mission critical space, .NET the desktop and rapid web apps. I think JDesktop Network Components (JDNC) may be an interesting competitor to WinForms/Avalon.
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Message #160580
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.NET expert: Microsoft is losing confidence in .NET
Oh!!!
The nightmare of Sun dominating my desktop, tell me this is not 1998. ;)
cheers.
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Message #160754
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From a J2EE Developer...
I've worked for the Alliance and the Horde (Java and .NET), and mostly they are the same from a core technology point of view.
Personally, I don't see how java made it this long. If it weren't for people who actually liked tinkering for free, not being tied to Microsoft just because they are Microsoft, and whatnot, it would have died when .NET came out.
.NET, at least web technologies, are considerably easier to develop, are less error prone, and make more sense in a workflow sense. It certainly could be done the same way in Java, as SOFIA demonstrates. However it's a considerable work to get something as well rounded as ASP.NET, ADO.NET, Studio, and the framework.
There's a lot missing from java in technology such as libraries and quality code tools. The tools are integrated in a swiss armor knife fashion where they vary in quality, integration, documentation, and are difficult to update consisantly. It's a royal nightmare when you are not sure if you the current bug is your code, a libary bug, or something wrong with the IDE.
I can't entirely say I hope java dies, becuase MS has no competition then. If anything, I had hoped someone would unify the technology into a quality toolset, such as WSAD that actually performed well, had more substance, and was intuitive.
However considering how poorly SUN has handled the whole affair, there's a small part of me that wants to see it die while in the process bankrupting SUN for their total lack of business vision. They have made total spagetti and set development back years from what could have been a leap forward for development.
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Message #160879
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Another J2EE Developer
All the comments seem to be baised towards a Microsoft and .NET. I have terrible times finding out, whats going wrong with applications developed with Microsoft Technologies.
Atleast I can get around with the crap libraries in java.
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Message #160923
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Somewhat true...
I kinda agree with you on the debugging and analysis side. I'll say that the lacking of checked and unchecked exception it kinda loony. It takes some time to get used to digging for information in the MSDN. Also not having source code for a library when you are used to having it can be a pain.
So it's true .NET isn't perfect. However the things that tie up most of my time in terms for web development and debugging .NET handles wonderfully.
I just get the feeling inside me that the java libs, struts, JSP, and other aspects flew out the door quickly and then immediately went stagnant. The java libs are missing stuff like reasonable file management. Struts, which I use often, hasn’t really changed since it was released. The whole “wiring” of a web application or even a SWING application is about 50% of the work to build an application solution in the first place.
Personally SWING about drove me nuts. But the approach in tacking SWING is the same approach you have to use with .NET. Read a huge amount and experiment along the way. It’s not just .NET you need after all. You need VisualStudio, .NET framework, ADO.NET, C#, and ASP.NET, for web of course. I grabbed the C# and VisualStudio ExamCram book, and It’s been a great help.
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Message #160931
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Java or .Net
I have used Java for the past 5+ years and still find it very hard to use for creating large distributed application. The fact that there are so many venders offering their own flavor of the application server and their own custom functionality clouds the Java world even more. Along with SWING, which is to hard to work with, my team has a very difficult time getting application created that have a thick client. I am also very surprised at how Java is still getting used given that SUN has done a terrible job in maturating the platform. I just started using .NET and surprisingly find it very easy to use and very comparable or even better then Java. Also it very easy to create thick client within the VS environment. I think MS had done an excellent job in getting .NET to where it is today and I am looking forward to the next version. I use to be a MS C++ programmer about 9 or 10 years ago and now I am enjoying C#. I think Java has to watch it’s back because I think .NET is going to take over as the choice for all development in the future. Just my thoughts and I could be wrong.
ka
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Message #160979
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Java vs. .NET Debate at TheServerSide Java Symposium
The end of Java has come and gone numerous times like the doomsdays in the fanaticly religious circles. Surely, the end of Java must come soon! Well, keep waiting. Besides if Java dies, that leaves Microsoft to 'innovate' alone - which it does not do very well (look at IE).
.NET and Java are very similar in the basic functionality. There is no reason why someone would drop one or the other. They both have their user bases, and niches.
There are a couple of simple reasons why .NET never overtook Java, and why it was all a mirage and marketing fluff in a nice package called hype.
Microsoft released .NET way too early, and the first usable version is now about 8 months old. I still would not trust it for any kind of critical operations. I have some very bitter personal experiences with .NET and I have seen people sit clueless debugging memory leaks and crashers that were not their fault - for weeks!
The fact is that .NET is years behind Java in some very fundamental things like basic libraries and interoperability between various technologies, and tools.
Take for example, profiling. .NET sucks ass so bad, it is not even funny. Without a proper profiling support I can only feel very sorry for those who attempt to build large mission critical systems with .NET. The inability to see inside the running application is a big risk to take when you need to debug mysterious performance problems, bottle necks, memory consumption etc. You simply can not guess where they are coming from always.
Come on now, Java IDEs suck? The truth is completely opposite - VS.NET is a stoneage tool compared to some Java stuff available. Surely VS.NET has some nice features too but overall it can not compete.
So, do think the Java developers are doing to stop developing in Java and go .NET? What reason would they have to do that? There is simply no reason whatsoever. They might develop with .NET when they have to but they go back to Java any other time. Then there is a group of people who will avoid .NET out of principle, and that group is big, and probably growing.
When you look behind the marketing fluff and pure FUD, and experience the 'greatness' of .NET on your own, you will start to value some of the Java features and wealth of libraries from a new perspective. Many of the useful things that are coming to .NET from the open source community often come directly from Java. Today, I can't think of developing without some of the .NET translations of Java libraries.
I often see that it takes a seasoned Java developer to develop the hard stuff with .NET. If you put your seasoned VB6 developer to do the same job, the results can be rather, let me say, VB6'ish - spaghetti code, copy-paste, no real concept of objects, components, frameworks. Most of .NET will be missed and lost in that torture - I have witnessed it personally.
I am not saying Java is perfect because it is not. I would like some .NET stuff to Java, and I have no problem saying that. There are just very fundamental grass-root level issues with .NET that set it years behind the curve compared to Java on many arenas.
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Message #160981
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Java or .Net
I have used Java for the past 5+ years and still find it very hard to use for creating large distributed application.
Large distributed applications are hard to create by nature. There is nothing easy about them. If you think otherwise, your application was not large, or very distributed.
.NET does not offer anything to make your life easier on this front! Not one thing. It is sad to say that Java has its pitfalls if you had to deal with EJBs for example. But you do not have to fall into that pit either because you have a lot of good alternatives. You could use Jini, you could use Spring & remoting, you have many messaging implementations to choose from and so on.
If I had to choose between Java and .NET for developing a large and distributed application, I would do it with Java. If you need to interoperate, I would do it with Java. If you need to work in a heterogenic environment, I can only do it in Java. Bigger your application grows, the smaller is the option to use .NET.
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Message #161017
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Java vs. .NET Debate at TheServerSide Java Symposium
The fact is that .NET is years behind Java in some very fundamental things like basic libraries and interoperability between various technologies, and tools.
How comes almost all innovations in Java J2SE5 (at language lever) are copied from C#? Autoboxing/Unboxing, Typesafe Enums, Varargs, Metadata (Annotations), enhanced for loop ...
I am not claiming that Microsoft has invented them but they were definitely in C# before Java. To me it looks like Java has lost its technical lead and had to catch up.
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Message #161043
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Java vs. .NET Debate at TheServerSide Java Symposium
Looks like we are getting into a debate on which IDE is better then the other and which libraries support you best.
Personally I think the problem with Java really lies in the fact that SUN only guards the specifications and JDK, and we have to rely on many third parties for delivering us implementing software and platforms. These third parties HAVE to enhance the functionality (which kills portability of your code when used) to stand out from the others. The incompatiblity issues are great and will grow in my opinion.
However we will all be moving towards SOA in the future. When implemented with care this will disconnect technologies within integrated systems from each other, thus enabling everybody to use the technology they want. Now wouldn't that be a great conclusion to the discussion? Nothing dies in software technology, it just gets completed but will remain used many years on (cobol has to be the best example of all)
Jan.
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Message #161104
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Jave should be worried about .Net
If I had to choose between Java and .NET for developing a large and distributed application, I would do it with Java. If you need to interoperate, I would do it with Java. If you need to work in a heterogenic environment, I can only do it in Java. Bigger your application grows, the smaller is the option to use .NET.
1) The company I work for has many enterprise applications running under .Net and I know many other that also have enterprise applications running using .Net
2) Interoperate: Give me a break, Java just no caught up wit IBM, BEA, MS with their Web Service capabilities (and it is not 100% either). For example, our Jave programs still have problems callin overloaded web funtion, which almost all of the other player support.
3) If you want to write in multiple languages you can do that and use hte same IDE in .Net. For example I currently use VB.Net and C#, and I know some perl programmers who have looked at Perl.Net and they liked it. I can even dredge up some of the COBOL trainging I have and write a .Net application using Cobol.Net.
4) Debudding .Net applications is really easy, you just have to know what you are doing. Plus, I can step through my web code just like I can with fat clients. From what I've seen of Sun IDE you cannot do that, you have to use a 3rd party like WebSphere or JBuilder to get a good IDE. .Nets' IDE is just as good as the hight end Java IDE's and better than a majority fo them
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