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Latest .NET Rocks! show live on Java and .NET
Bruce Tate and Ted Neward discuss Java, .NET, Microsoft, Sun, cultures, open-source, and a few other things as part of the .NET Rocks! show held live last Friday. Have a listen in and fire back with your comments.
Visit the .NET Rocks! website to get either the full MP3 file or a streaming feed.
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Message #112642
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So far I made these reflections
I have listened to the first 1/3 part! (I wish they could enjoy themselves i little less and be more to the point! :)
I don't understand the VB vs. C# debate. As I understand it, the reason that VB exists was the migration aspect- that you can take a VB6 application and transform it into VB.NET and thereafter at your leisure, convert it to C# step by step over a period of time. J#- likewise, I though that J# was constructed for the same purpose. I am surprised that guys want to make new programs in VB.NET or J#.NET!
And I am not convinced that it is a good thing.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #112656
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.NET Languages
It might be a reason and perhaps other then technical for MS to further extend the VB.Net and J#.Net, but what is the benefit of developing a new .Net application in any language other then C#, managed C++ or C++.
I can hardly imaging any benefit from using VB.NET. In earlier days the VB wasn?t an object oriented and had no exception support so arguably someone could say that it is easier for people after 3 month programming courses to use it, but now it became as complex as C#. To write a new application in J# is complete nonsense because any existing visual J++ (MS Java) code is COM object by definition and can be accessed by any of the .NET languages including C# and C++.
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Message #112657
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united we must stand
Steve: "VB.NET is a first class language alongside of C# and Managed C++."
Yes of course, I don't deny that but it is not better either!
There are a number of disadvantages however, whereof one is fragmentation. Why if you suddenly find yourself with a team of 1/3 C#, 1/3 VB and 1/3 J# guys?
But the most important thing is C# nearness to Java. That's make its easy to:
1) Understand Java programs and interoperate with it.
2) To recompile Java programs to C#, as "Naked Objects" guys did with almost no change in code. Easy to "borrow" or "steal" from an enormous amount of quality libraries and code.
3) Program in Java (good money is good money :).
So what advantages is there with VB over C#? I can not see any.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #112665
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So far I made these reflections
I should probably start by saying, in the best /. Tradition, that I?ve not actually listened to the material but I?m curious about the whole .NET vs. Java thing. This isn?t intended as a flame bait either.
I?ve worked as a consultant on a couple of .NET projects, and I?ve also used Java and J2EE quite a bit. Both are OK frameworks, and C# is a perfectly decent Java clone. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, of course. The Java libraries are a lot more mature, and you don?t encounter the kind of nightmare problems you can get into with the exception handling in .NET. I miss checked exceptions from C# (but some Java programmers hate them), and I miss the rich toolkit that the combination of Applets/JSP/Serlets/EJB?s and Struts give you. That said ASP.NET is impressive, and, as you would expect, the GUI tools in .NET are good If dull to program (QT/Mac/Next all do this better). The thing is I can?t imagine why anyone would choose .NET over Java.
1) Productivity: This is mostly nonsense ? you can typically be as productive in Java as in .NET. IDEA is, in some ways, a better IDE then VS, and Eclipse is also very good and getting better. There are huge (and often excellent) open source libraries around for Java which you can use, and the Java community is vast and mostly very helpful. The quirks of Java are well understood, so people can more easily advise you how to get around them they can similar problems in .NET. You can put together GUI faster in .NET then in Java, I think, but that is about it.
2) Cost: Eclipse is free. IDEA is not that expensive when compared to VS. J2EE App Servers can be, but there are plenty of free or cheap open-source options around (Jboss for example), and Apache/Tomcat is free, excellent, and most of what you need anyway.
3) Portability: This for me is the killer argument. My company makes web apps for enterprises. It?s a small company; and with each product we probably sell one or two big licenses a year. Most of these are to clients running Solaris or Linux anyway, but it doesn?t matter since I can run the apps on Windows, AIX, Z/OS or almost anything else. I know about MONO but my guess is it will be a long time before if becomes commercial quality, and they will find it hard to keep up with MS. (Microsoft?s past history suggests that MS will kill Mono anyway one way or another if they perceive it as taking business away from them).
You may think Windows is the best OS in the world (I don?t, by a long way, but each to their own), and that IIS is the best web server, but, of course, Java runs well on Windows, so that doesn?t seem to do it, and can run under IIS. You may have lots of MS skills but .NET is radically different from any prior MS technology so you?re going to have to re-learn/re-train anyway. So that doesn?t seem to do it either.
So, apart from ?I like Microsoft?, ?I don?t like Sun? why would you choose .NET?
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Message #112666
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So far I made these reflections
PS: No idea why the forum is rendering an apostrophe as a question mark; that will teach me to try and use punctuation!
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Message #112675
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Of course it won?t happen!
The C# camp must learn to understand what they look like with Java eyes!
This is the best metaphor I can give:
Imagine you are in Aspen with some friends, all experienced skiers and suddenly you see some people coming that all have the latest fashionable and very expensive ski-equipment, better than of any of you have- but everything is brand new. It is obvious that these guys are not so as experienced skiers as you- some of them may even be beginners!
You would immediately be overcomed with an urge to ridicule these guys. It's natural. After all, you are only human!
I don't buy that you think Java/Linux is better than C#/Windows, I mean that I think you are not really honest. Just to save time look up this link, it more or less sums it up.
http://www.advogato.org/article/752.html
Nathan Myers: "Therefore, if Java were the answer to anything, C# would be a better answer, and any attention devoted to begging Sun for Java bones would be better spent on implementing the ECMA C# standard. Contrariwise, if C# is not the answer, then Java certainly isn't."
--------------------------------
That said I turn around and will criticize the C# camp for not admitting that "seeing as a whole, the Java/Linux developer is normally a better developer than a MS developer". Why deny it? They have to be, in order to survive in such a harsh climate. And contrary, when you live in luxury, you get soft.
So what I am saying is that the world would be better of if,
a) The Java camp admitted that C# is the best language and have the best environment and tools.
b) The MS crowd admitted that the Java developers are better programmers and have more real life enterprise projects experience.
c) The MS guys understood that there are some things in Java (Spring, Tapestry, iBatis etc) that C# don't have, (as when you buy a new car, there is always some functionality that was better in your old car even the new car is better.)
d) The Java camp admitted that they have somehow got into an embarrassing rut of "pseudo-computer-science", and over-architect their solutions. That too is normal and human, they want too emphases their advantage.
In short, to admit the other side's strong points, and your own weak ones.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #112685
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Of course it did happen!
> The C# camp must learn to understand what they look like with Java eyes!
>
> This is the best metaphor I can give:
>
> Imagine you are in Aspen with some friends, all experienced skiers and suddenly you see some people coming that all have the latest fashionable and very expensive ski-equipment, better than of any of you have- but everything is brand new. It is obvious that these guys are not so as experienced skiers as you- some of them may even be beginners!
Even though having the best equipment won't make you the best skier. It could even get in your way of being better, depending on what "facilities" such equipment provides you ("you don't have to learn to park your car, it parks itself for you!").
>
> I don't buy that you think Java/Linux is better than C#/Windows, I mean that I think you are not really honest.
Don't call someone dishonest just because you disagree with his opinion. No need to call names.
>Just to save time look up this link, it more or less sums it up.
>
> http://www.advogato.org/article/752.html
"Java: failure or crime?" - Do you take that guy as being serious? C'mon...
>
> Nathan Myers: "Therefore, if Java were the answer to anything, C# would be a better answer, and any attention devoted to begging Sun for Java bones would be better spent on implementing the ECMA C# standard. Contrariwise, if C# is not the answer, then Java certainly isn't."
If java was a failure, MS wouldn't have cloned it in the first place! This guy is trying to prove that Java is a total failure and then comes with this sort of logic?
>
> That said I turn around and will criticize the C# camp for not admitting that "seeing as a whole, the Java/Linux developer is normally a better developer than a MS developer". Why deny it? They have to be, in order to survive in such a harsh climate. And contrary, when you live in luxury, you get soft.
Don't forget also the many more years of experience dealing with complex enterprise system development, with which .Net developers came to deal only recently. The harsh environment you talk about is a property of complex enterprise development itself, it won't get any easier for .Net developers, as some are finding out now. There are no magic wands when solving these problems, no drag and drop solution you can download from MSDN, you can't leave it for MS alone to decide things for you anymore, these are problems which must be dealt with case by case, involving difficult decisions. It's a whole new world for most .Net developers.
>
> So what I am saying is that the world would be better of if,
>
> a) The Java camp admitted that C# is the best language and have the best environment and tools.
Pity it is chained to one platform only. Many (most?) companies can't afford that lock in. And AFAIK mono if very far away of being viable in production for most situations, if ever.
Besides, both platforms are so similar, the gain you may have switching to C# (higher productivity and performance in some areas) may end up not being enough to cover the costs (platform lock in, less mature and comprehensive API, lower productivity and performance in other areas, lower developers' expertise).
>
> b) The MS crowd admitted that the Java developers are better programmers and have more real life enterprise projects experience.
It's natural, being Java older than .Net. Besides, the long history of MS's spoon feeding its developers is now starting to show up.
>
> c) The MS guys understood that there are some things in Java (Spring, Tapestry, iBatis etc) that C# don't have, (as when you buy a new car, there is always some functionality that was better in your old car even the new car is better.)
Being both platforms so similar, this can be a source of "exchange" between .Net and Java, where the "best" of each world could be ported to the other. This could level the playing field one day, but for a long time, Java will still be ahead, given it's multiplatform environment and its maturity, allowing it to evolve into new areas while MS plays catch up.
>
> d) The Java camp admitted that they have somehow got into an embarrassing rut of "pseudo-computer-science", and over-architect their solutions. That too is normal and human, they want too emphases their advantage.
I take that as part of evolution, since enterprise development is so complex, solutions would eventually come to the complex side too. Just see how .Net is much more complex than anything else done previously by MS. But this is a good thing, because in the end the fittest will survive in their own environment, and we can end up having the best solution for each kind of problem (the best O/R mapper, the best Cache manager, the best distributed transaction manager, selected from many competitors), a natural evolution. In the Java case, this is a by-product of its community, which relies on multi-vendor and open-source solutions, all of them working on a set of problems, and coming up with different but equally viable products. IMHO, this is a good environment, resembling nature itself, where different species fight for their share of the ecosystem. The best will win.
>
> In short, to admit the other side's strong points, and your own weak ones.
And don't call names in the meantime! ;) For some people this is the hardest part of being a developer... ;)
Regards,
Henrique Steckelberg
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Message #112690
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The Question Mark Issue (in place of the appostrophe)
When you (as I do often) type your response in Word and then cut & paste it into the textbox on TSS, the "Word" appostrophe is not reckognized by TSS and is rendered as a question mark... one of these days maybe they will fix it
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Message #112697
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Why NOT use VB.NET
So far the question has been address from the angle of "Why Use" VB.NET and has (at least "usually") been approached as a Java (or other non-MS language background migrating to .NET).
For those of us who are "historically" VB developers (I actually go all the way back to "pre-Visual" BASIC) the learning curve for moving to .NET is much shorter when all I have to learn is the great new advantages of .NET and don't have to work with a bunch of new syntax, not to mention squirrelly braces and other constructs at the same time...
As to the 'value' arguments of VB.NET over C# or vice-versa, one of the beauties of the CLR is that there is VERY LITTLE (yes there are a few things...)that you can do with C# and not VB or the other way. (I haven't found any of these 'limitations' to be 'limiting') I would abstract these arguments as the same as the argument, which is "better" English or Spanish? As a Native English speaker I tend to "think" in English and where I need to I can translate to Spanish. As a VB developer I "think" in VB (but I can translate to C# if I need to... or I can read C# code and translate to VB) I (and other traditional VB developers) can produce faster in VB.NET.
As for the question of what if your team is 1/3 VB 1/3 C# and 1/3J#... Again the CLR makes this moot. You build your assemblies with what ever .NET language you like and I will build mine in VB.NET and we can fully interop with each other. As for interop with Java, all .NET languages have the same issues, so, again, no one is better than the other. Take 9 developers (3 VB, 3 C#, and 3 J#) and assign them the same task (assuming they are all "good" developers) you will have 9 different solutions, but the MSIL will all be remarkably similar, and since that is the code that is actually executed at runtime that is what "really" matters...
What it all comes down to is that all of this "My language is better than your language" discussion is completely unproductive. What we should all stay focused on is how we can each do more to build "better/faster/stronger" applications that actually meet the needs of our customers, rather than worry about what language the other guy (or gal...) is using.
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Message #112701
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Why NOT use VB.NET
From development point of view in .Net, there is almost no difference between VB, C# or J#, agreed. But from management point of view, having more than one language will always increase the complexity, leading to more problems than a one language shop.
This "advantage" .Net has over Java, allowing heterogeneous teams work on the same project, can lead to management troubles, depending on the structure adopted. If the shop can manage to keep languages separated by module or layer, it could minimize these problems, otherwise imagine having to maintain a system where you may jump everytime from language to language, it would be a hell to debug it!
Regards,
Henrique Steckelberg
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Message #112707
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Don't just think in-house development
Don't just think in-house development though. There are huge benefits to be had by being able to use components that are written by a third party vendor without having to worry about the language they used.
In the long run, language interoperability is going to grant you access to more reusable components and frameworks.
BTW: there is no real need to debate Java and .NET as an either/or. There is a bunch of vendors that offer commercial Java/.NET interoperability solutions. I happen to work for one of them (Codemesh) and our customers are usually not choosing to interoperate for the fun of it but because they have a real integration need (for example rich .NET client for EJB or JMS enterprise system or Java product and .NET customer) and anything that helps them put the pieces together is good news.
Debugging a VB.NET app that uses a TPV component written in Java is not harder than debugging a VB.NET app that uses a TPV component written in VB.NET for which you don't have the source code or the PDBs.
Alex
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Message #112712
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Re: So far I made these reflections
> I?ve worked as a consultant on a couple of .NET projects... The Java libraries are a lot more mature, and you don?t encounter the kind of nightmare problems you can get into with the exception handling in .NET.
Hmm, this is interesting. Could you please show us areas in which Java libraries are more mature than .NET's? Specific examples would be great. Somo specific examples of the "nigthmare" problems you get into when handling exceptions in .NET would also be great.
> the GUI tools in .NET are good If dull to program (QT/Mac/Next all do this better).
But we were comparing Java with .NET so the comparison should be between WinForms and Swing.
> J2EE App Servers can be [expensive], but there are plenty of free or cheap open-source options around (Jboss for example), and Apache/Tomcat is free, excellent, and most of what you need anyway.
Are you saying that JBoss has the same level of functionality/performance of Weblogic or Websphere? Apache/Tomcat is free but IIS comes as part of the OS and .NET Framework is free too.
> 3) Portability: This for me is the killer argument.
Sure, provided you or your customers need it. But it also forces you to less common denominators. That's why Swing is harder and less capable than Windows Forms. Also, using the OS facilities is far easier, e.g. to use Windows users and roles from ASP.NET is a snap, what about JSP.
> So, apart from ?I like Microsoft?, ?I don?t like Sun? why would you choose .NET?
Of course, this would be a very silly argument, and most of us don't buy it. A far better one: developer productivity (what you call "spoon feeding" at some point). I also develop in Java and .NET and, time over time, I see situations where only a Java guru can solve the problem yet it takes an average .NET program to do the same.
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Message #112713
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Re: Why NOT use VB.NET
> From development point of view in .Net, there is almost no difference between VB, C# or J#, agreed. But from management point of view, having more than one language will always increase the complexity, leading to more problems than a one language shop.
If you replace "languages" by "operating systems", would you agree that your point still holds?
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Message #112715
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Re: Why NOT use VB.NET
> > From development point of view in .Net, there is almost no difference between VB, C# or J#, agreed. But from management point of view, having more than one language will always increase the complexity, leading to more problems than a one language shop.
>
> If you replace "languages" by "operating systems", would you agree that your point still holds?
Yes, but to a lesser degree, since the dependencies between two languages in the same project are higher than the dependencies between 2 different OS on the same project (despite the fact that Java shields you completely from these differences). Also, the separation between software developer and OS administrator roles is very clear, which decreases this dependency even more.
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Message #112716
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So far I made these reflections
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|I don't understand the VB vs. C# debate. As I understand
|it, the reason that VB exists was the migration aspect-
|that you can take a VB6 application and transform it into
|VB.NET
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Thats most peoples' misconception.
VB6 and VB.net are streets apart. Certainly no trivial task to move from VB6 to VB.NET.
Some of our developers are preferring C# or Java - not because there is anything wrong with VB.NEt - but because it is simultaneously familiar and totally alien. It does their head in.
-Nick
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Message #112728
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to convert legacy vb6 applications to .NET
Nick what are you talking about?
It is very (no extremely) easy to convert a vb6 app to vb.NET. Just use the code advisor for visual basic 6 at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/vbasic/downloads/codeadvisor/default.aspx
Open your application in vb6 and click "Scope: Active Project to scan the project", "Add FixIts" button and a full report of the issues will be generated.
After you reviewed the report and made the necessary changes you can open the project in Visual Studio.NET and all changes will be made for you automatically. Piece of cake.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #112746
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to convert legacy vb6 applications to .NET
Rolf,
There are 3 problems with your latest entry:
1) This tool is hardly a comprehensive utility for upgrading VB6 apps to .NET. There are enough holes in it that more complex applications (dare I say like "enterprise applications") need much more work than the report provides guidance for.
2) Again more complex applications require so many modifications that you might as well re-write the whole application.
and finally,
3) The tool assumes you understand .NET well enough to "Properly" implement the suggestions in the report, as such really doesn't address the issue of migrating the developer to .NET
Hardly a "piece of cake"
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Message #112748
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Of course it won?t happen!
So, Rolf, how does it feel to get a taste of your own medicine?
Rolf:
I don't buy that you think Java/Linux is better than C#/Windows, I mean that I think you are not really honest.
No, I think you are not really honest. End of the debate.
So, have we learned something interesting about the vanity of trying to compare frameworks, now?
--
Cedric
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Message #112756
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everything is relative
Ok, Cos, I admit that you is right in some way, i e the application will not be real OO of course.
To learn stuff like Dependency Injection, differentiate between Constructor Injection, Setter Injection, Interface Injection etc etc and all OO will take some time of course. But don't underestimate the convenience of the conversion tool. After you have the application in vb.NET, you can convert it to C# gradually (Kaizen), and make it right. Don't make the mistake to believe that all MS developers are idiots.
Everybody should ask themselves, was I an experienced C++ programmer before I started with Java? If the answer is no, there could be a chance that you will be asked to stand in the corner and answer only when addressed, "to be allowed to bring coffee".
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #112758
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to be honest or not to be honest
Hi Cedric,
Welcome to the dark side!
So convenient for me that you said. "End of debate"!
That will give me the last world, will it not? :)
I have already said "to admit the other side's strong points and your own weak ones" won't happen. (the human nature being what it is)
But at least I can say that I should not like to compete against Vic Cekvenich, using Tomcat and Spring! Also I can assure you that I have never been more honest when I say that to use (and buy!) Weblogic must be one of the stupidest thing that is possible to do in any project.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #112768
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to be honest or not to be honest
Rolf:
Welcome to the dark side!
Welcome? Rolf, I have been using and programming on the "Dark Side" for probably longer than you.
The last time I called it the "Dark Side" was probably... twenty years ago, though. What can I say, I was young, I was just experimenting and I owned an Amiga.
Also I can assure you that I have never been more honest when I say that to use (and buy!) Weblogic must be one of the stupidest thing that is possible to do in any project.
Oh I have no doubt you are honest when you say this, but I just wanted to point out that people who disagree with you are equally honest, so that doesn't make you more righteous than them.
Besides, I am certainly happy that our customers seem to be in a rather violent disagreement with you, or are you going to call them dishonest as well? :-)
By the way, check out my latest weblog entry. It's about closed source and open source, you're gonna love it.
--
Cedric
http://beust.com/weblog
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Message #112769
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Open Source can go to a varm place..
Hmm, at least we have the same opinion of Open Source.
I can not understand that people always have to follow this crazes, join sects or worship Indian Gurus (that usually is discovered having 16 Rolls-Royce and routinely have sex with his followers..) through all history.
And why should it be a good thing to destroy the software industry? There is nothing that is better or more advantageous (or fun) for an independent developer than to have a small product to sell!
My apology for the rather harsh statement but have you considered splitting up Weblogic in a number of modules that you could pick and choose from?
MS had/have this big and expensive and cumbersome product "Sharepoint Portal Server" which I wouldn't touch with a 10-foot pole even. But last year they released "Sharpoint Portal Services" which was in principle more or less building blocks that made it possible to assemble your own portal and leave out what you didn't need..
I do have a natural abhorrence for big software-products because they never work for me! :)
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #112773
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to be honest or not to be honest
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|Also I can assure you that I have never been more honest
|when I say that to use (and buy!) Weblogic must be one of
|the stupidest thing that is possible to do in any project.
|
Dont confuse honesty with intelligence.
Weblogic and tomcat are used for entirely different classes of applications - so to say that you think using Weblogic would be stupid means that you dont understand this distinction. How would you, say, do a non-web application with tomcat?
-Nick
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Message #112776
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to be honest or not to be honest
Nick: "And in the real world..?"
What do you mean? No conversion tool is 100%. The rest you do by hand. As simple as that. Please do not be grumpy. By the way, the Java to C# tool works very well too, don't you believe that either?
So what Weblogic-specefic behavior/function is it that you can not add to Tomcat with 3-party software? (Please don't say declarative and/or distributed transactions).
EJBs? Here is an excerpt from a current thread in Java TSS,
John Davies: "We (C24) are definitely not J2EE centric, we pondered the question a few years ago and decided to remain "open" when it comes to Java based frameworks. Thankfully we stayed clear of EJBs..
..so I suppose we support them, it's just that no one wants to use EJBs these days, not for real work anyway."
http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.jsp?thread_id=24271#112724
Do you remember how I was ripped to pieces last year when I dare to question EJBs in TSS? Do you? (I'm still in hospital.. :)
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #112780
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to be honest or not to be honest
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|What do you mean?
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I mean in the real world. In a non-toy application.
In any kind of "porting" effort, its not uncommon for the the amount of effort required to get the last 10% to work to outweigh the amount it would take to start afresh. Not to mention the maintainability benefit of a proper redesign that actually suits the target.
This is true of porting C++ between platforms. Let alone porting between different languages with different runtimes and different API's.
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|Here is an excerpt from a current thread in Java TSS
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John has been banging on with that kind of crap for years. I should know :-). He knows better than to make such broad statements.
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|So what Weblogic-specefic behavior/function is it that you
|can not add to Tomcat with 3-party software? (Please don't
|say declarative and/or distributed transactions).
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<Sigh>.
Declarative distributed transactions. There. I said it.
Show me something you can add to tomcat to give you transparent enlistment of a variety of XAResources... like database & jms.
Show me something you can add to tomcat that gives me transactional consumption of messages (including all connection resilience management) ala MDB's.
Show me something that you can add to tomcat to give you Connector support.
Show me something that you can add to tomcat to give you automated deployment across a cluster. And other such features that some enterprise production environments would require...
None of these are unique to Weblogic, by the way. Most of them are supplied by any J2EE compliant appserver.
-Nick
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Message #112786
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need help
There you got me. I am no longer sufficient J2EE sayvee to know what components I need to add to Tomcat/Spring. I am sure that they exists though..
Juergen help me!
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #112790
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You dont need help, you need a brain
"There you got me. I am no longer sufficient J2EE sayvee to know what components I need to add to Tomcat/Spring. I am sure that they exists though.."
mmm... Ok, you are not an J2EE expert (and I assume you dont have any experience working with any J2EE application server). But... how come you make such broad statements:
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|Also I can assure you that I have never been more honest
|when I say that to use (and buy!) Weblogic must be one of
|the stupidest thing that is possible to do in any project.
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??????????????
I just can speak for myself, but I wouldn't never ever dare to throw that sort of arguments without having a sound understanding of whay I am attacking/arguing against.
That obviously, speaks about you by itself.
"I am sure that they exists though.."
Again, without any sufficient knowledge on J2EE (and I assume you dont have any experience working with any J2EE application server), how can you be sure they exist??? Are you an oracle of some sort?
That obviously, TELL US A LOT about you by itself.
Yours truly.
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Message #112794
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none coming
They dont exist.
Juergen and I have spoken about some of them. Some of them are well-known.
A couple of these things might be available in the future though - depends if I have some time. Even if I do, they will not be of the quality of, say, Weblogic's for some time to come.
Depends if I would prefer to just deploy my app in Websphere and be done with it. If I did that, a bunch of my problems would dissappear.
-Nick
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Message #112797
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get used to it :-)
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|That obviously, speaks about you by itself.
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Sadly, this kind of stuff is commonplace from our friend Rolf :-)
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Message #112802
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dont exist but are well-known?
Nick: "They dont exist"
Nick: "Some of them are well-known"
That seems like a contradiction to me!
Do you mean Arjuna?
http://www.arjuna.com/products/index.html
Products,
ArjunaMS
ArjunaTS
ArjunaXTS
And tell me honestly, "how many times have you needed distributed transactions since 3 mars 2003" (one year ago)?
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #112803
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so desperate for a win?
Nick,
Are you defending/joining with that raving lunatic Roberto "Just a Software Developer" now?
Well that?s defines pretty much why I no longer works with Java, "The culture drives me away".
I like to win too but I am not so desperate that I loose all common decency.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #112831
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u need a brain!!!
"There you got me. I am no longer sufficient J2EE sayvee to know what components I need to add to Tomcat/Spring. I am sure that they exists though.."
mmm... Ok, you are not an J2EE expert (and I assume you dont have any experience working with any J2EE application server). But... how come you make such broad statements:
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|Also I can assure you that I have never been more honest
|when I say that to use (and buy!) Weblogic must be one of
|the stupidest thing that is possible to do in any project.
|
??????????????
I just can speak for myself, but I wouldn't never ever dare to throw that sort of arguments without having a sound understanding of whay I am attacking/arguing against.
That obviously, speaks about you by itself.
"I am sure that they exists though.."
Again, without any sufficient knowledge on J2EE (and I assume you dont have any experience working with any J2EE application server), how can you be sure they exist??? Are you an oracle of some sort?
That obviously, TELL US A LOT about you by itself.
Yours truly.
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Message #112923
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dont exist but are well-known?
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| That seems like a contradiction to me!
Some of the problems are well known...
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|Do you mean Arjuna?
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No. I need declarative XA transactions... if I wanted an ok JTA implementation - I's have gone with JOTM... its OSS.
|And tell me honestly, "how many times have you needed
|distributed transactions since 3 mars 2003" (one year
|ago)?
On practically every bit of software I have worked on. Any EAI work, requiring a combination of messaging and databases requires XA. If there was something available "out of appserver" right now, I would use it. But it isnt. So I cant.
-Nick
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Message #112928
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How do you feel to be in the same camp as these people?
Ok Nick, I rest my case.
But how is your opinion of "Just a Software Developer"?
How do you agree with these extreme Java/OS zealots, always angry, strong and vociferous in an impolite manner- a general nuisance that don't know how to behave in a forum? I ask you as a "normal" person, even if we have different opinion.
Regards
Rolf Tollerud
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Message #112933
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hahahaha nice try...
mmm... are you diverting the attention from the original topic?
"Ok Nick, I rest my case."---> You were proven wrong but can't accept it. Dont you?
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Message #112943
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Migrating a big VB6/ASP project to VB.NET????
"In these days I've supported one of my collegue in the port of a very big VB6/ASP project to VB.NET. (He made the porting to learn .NET, and I can say that he is ready now!)"
What is "big" for you? Anyways, I dont/wont see any company porting any application just to let their developers learn a particular technology. Besides, the story looks more like a one man effort. And we all know the limitations in that case.
"The project was an Intranet project very well organized and designed:"
Good! They recognize the fact that a "well organized and designed" application is vital.
"I know that this case is very lucky..."
The guy is honest... quite you opposite.
Any core business application being ported in the fashion you push for?
Please, let us know.
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Message #113075
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Clarifications on the ported project from my blog
These are the dimensions of the project:
3 tier, 30/50 classes in every tier, more than 200 xslt pages, and only 2 asp pages...
The initial porting was a one man project done to demonstrate the technical feasibility.
What have made the porting easier than normal projects was that all the presentation tier was heavily based on XSLT, that required only a little transformation from the MSXML 4.0 model to the System.Xml model.
But with a well designed code, not extremely bound on VB6/ASP, the porting was the simplest, fastest solution, and now the management is really evaluating making the shift.
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Message #113119
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Clarifications on the ported project from my blog
>> The project ... very well organized and designed
>> 3 tier
>> The ASP page was quite empty
>> only 2 asp pages
>> lot of XML and XSL
>> I know that this case is very lucky
Lucky? I'll say!
Nothing like any of the ASP/VB projects I have seen :-)
And what usage did you make of ADO? VARIANTS?
Any problems with varaiables Declared Dim v1, v2,v3 As Something getting converted to Object?
-Nick
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